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Amazon investors nuke ethics overhaul and say yes to $212M CEO pay

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Re: Amazon investors nuke ethics overhaul and say yes to $212M CEO pay

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of a company isn't to employ people. It's to take raw inputs, including employee labor, and turn that into outputs that people want. Employee relief comes in the form of voting with their feet or if they're critical inputs into what the black box produces

Amusing. The purpose of a company was originally exactly that: to employ people and provide services and value to the community they existed in. I mean, this is still the exact reason politicians cite when providing incentives to companies - bringing jobs to their cities/states. I'm pretty sure I don't like this new definition; it feels like it's based on greed, not value.

Employment is just a necessary evil. I can't wait until I can just spawn an ai instead of hiring someone

Re: Amazon investors nuke ethics overhaul and say yes to $212M CEO pay

#93
post #25

Most of the stuff in the "ethics overhaul" is pie in the sky nonsense. Take this bullet point: "Whether AWS does due diligence to know if cloud customers are using its services in a way that contributes to human rights violations" What does that even mean? How could that possibly be accomplished? Who decides what constitutes a "human rights violation" in the first place?

I agree. It's really starting down a bad path when we start asking megacorps to do the government's job. Corporations are fundamentally not subject to the will of the people, and it is almost impossible for the people to countervail the control authority of the extremely small set of owners who own the majority of voting shares. Let the justice system crack down on people or organizations "violating human rights" and…

I haven't made up my mind yet on the general topic, or rather, how to realize my personal view on this.

I don't want megacorps to take on the role of a government or law enforcement, but I do think there should be societal obligations and expectations towards corporations to use their property and power in a positive way for society. Current law is the overall minimum boundry, not the goal.

My current thought is, that this is mostly a matter of expectations, not actual change from the current state of things. If actors get away from our expectations, they should not be punished as if they broke a law, but it should prompt us to prepare one so it aligns with our expectations.

Maybe it is more a 'please don't force us to legislate every little thing' wishful thinking stance?

Re: Amazon investors nuke ethics overhaul and say yes to $212M CEO pay

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not historically accurate. Historically, the purpose of a company was to be a vehicle that a passive partner could invest capital into an enterprise providing a return on investment, such that an active partner (who did not) could manage it [1]. I do not see historical support for your claim that the purpose of a company was "to employ people and provide services and value to the community they existed in" eve…

The reason companies are given legal standing and privilege is because they serve a useful social function, in addition to being a legal nicety for investment. If companies don’t serve useful social purposes we can change the law to withdraw those privileges.

That's incorrect. They are given legal standing and privilege because they serve a useful /economic/ function (tax base).

The social function is downstream from this, and it's also what creates friction to actually /change the law/ to withdraw those privileges -- you do it at the risk of hemorrhaging that tax base which funds the governing apparatus.

Re: Amazon investors nuke ethics overhaul and say yes to $212M CEO pay

#96
post #67
post #12

[flagged]

I agree, and I think the argument "well most of it is stock" is also bullshit. Comp is comp; warehouse workers could be granted RSUs, but they don't (afaik) because reasons. Every dollar he's compensated could be compensation elsewhere. Every share; to someone else. A classic counter-argument is "well who gets to determine what is fair". I'd counter that with: who determines how much value he, inextricably and unique…

> warehouse workers could be granted RSUs, but they don't (afaik) because reasons.

They were until a few years ago.[1] IIRC, Amazon rolled out an ESPP that was exclusively available to employees not compensated with RSUs.

[1]: https://www.npr.org/2018/10/02/653597466/amazon-sets-15-mini...

Re: Amazon investors nuke ethics overhaul and say yes to $212M CEO pay

#97
21 million per year, which wouldn't even make him a top 10 paid NFL quarterback and people are complaining about his pay for running one of the biggest companies in the world. If anything he is underpaid compared to other large tech company CEOs. People really just want to be outraged.

Re: Amazon investors nuke ethics overhaul and say yes to $212M CEO pay

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> should ... truly fair ... should be ... acceptable How do you determine these absolutes? Why is your 'should' and 'fair' set at whatever value you're using, and not whatever value someone else determined? The only 'fair' is what someone is willing to pay. If you aren't willing to pay someone 200m... then don't. Why do you care if someone else is willing and does?

Because firms doing this has negative externalities - to be able to do this they are always going to be exploiting other workers or consumers, or competing in ways which harm society as a whole.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon investors nuke ethics overhaul and say yes to $212M CEO pay

#99
post #52
post #25

Most of the stuff in the "ethics overhaul" is pie in the sky nonsense. Take this bullet point: "Whether AWS does due diligence to know if cloud customers are using its services in a way that contributes to human rights violations" What does that even mean? How could that possibly be accomplished? Who decides what constitutes a "human rights violation" in the first place?

> Who decides what constitutes a "human rights violation" in the first place? There are plenty of organisations trying to do just that. UN Human Rights Council, Amnesty International, etc. There's a Universal Declaration of Human Rights that could quite easily be applied as a baseline.

> There's a Universal Declaration of Human Rights that could quite easily be applied as a baseline.

"Quite easily" is a stretch, that document is a well-intentioned mess. It omits rights that many take for granted, and the interpretation of many of them is highly subjective.

For instance, Article 10 gives everybody the right to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal. But it doesn't recognize the right to a trial by a jury of your peers.

Article 12 forbids attacks on somebody's honor or character. Does this mean calling a politician a lying scumbag is a violation of that politicians human rights? And how does this square with Article 19, which states that everybody has a right to freedom of expression?

Article 16 states that men and women have a right to get married, but the phrasing could be interpreted to only protect heterosexual marriages. (Probably provided by Article 2, but that could be debated.)

Article 25 states that mothers and children are entitled to special care and assistance, but says nothing of fathers. This seems to violate Article 2.

Article 26 says that elementary education shall be compulsory, but also states that parents have the right to decide what kind of education their children receive. Does that mean that Germany banning homeschooling is a violation of the rights of parents? Or maybe homeschooling itself a violation of a child's right to compulsory education? Can a parent choose to send their child to the "school of hard-knocks working in a coal mine"? What if instead of a coal mine, it's an illiterate tribal lifestyle with a high child mortality rate? Is a government compelled or forbidden to force native children into schools, as Canada and other countries infamously did in the past?

Article 27 seems to suggest that copyright and patent protections are a human right, but doesn't establish any limitations to this right. Are patents expiring after ~20 years a violation of the human rights of inventors?

Article 29 gives an escape clause allowing a democratic government to limit any of these rights whenever doing so is in the interest of morality, public order, or general welfare of the democratic society. What the hell does any of that mean in practice?

Article 30 can be interpreted to contradict Article 19, forbidding people from criticizing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights if they do so with the intent of destroying any these supposed human rights. Does that mean protesting against copyright is a violation of human rights?

Re: Amazon investors nuke ethics overhaul and say yes to $212M CEO pay

#100
post #97

21 million per year, which wouldn't even make him a top 10 paid NFL quarterback and people are complaining about his pay for running one of the biggest companies in the world. If anything he is underpaid compared to other large tech company CEOs. People really just want to be outraged.

> 21 million per year, which wouldn't even make him a top 10 paid NFL quarterback and people are complaining about his pay for running one of the biggest companies in the world. If anything he is underpaid compared to other large tech company CEOs. People really just want to be outraged.

Or imagine this... they (athletes and CEOs) are ALL grossly overpaid. WOAH!! How out of touch with reality are you, if you think that's acceptable for any human to make that kind of money when majority of the world can hardly afford food.

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