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Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

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Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#521

Post by panta »

beloch wrote: post #83

Canada is the U.S.'s neighbour and is probably closer, culturally, than any other nation. Gun ownership is also high in Canada. In terms of guns per capita, the U.S. is #1 by a long shot, but Canada is #7 [1]. In Canada, guns owned per capita is one third of what it is in the U.S.. Canada also has mass shootings. The annual deaths from mass shootings per capita in Canada is 0.032, which is about one third that of the…

> The annual deaths from mass shootings per capita in Canada is 0.032, which is about one third that of the U.S. (0.089) [2].

Nitpick to avoid confusion: these numbers are per million (not per capita).

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#522

Post by [deleted] »

vmurthy wrote: post #505
karmelapple wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a roadmap for policymakers that I think is steeped in evidence: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/claireboine/files/policy.b... There are 3 recommended policy changes in there.

Quite a quick read and sounds somewhat better than knee-jerk reactions people might have The 3 policy changes in the paper : ``` Evidence suggests that three priority policies would have the greatest impact in reducing overall firearm homicide rates: • Universal background checks; • Prohibition of gun possession by people with a history of any violent misdemeanor, threatened violence, or serious alcohol-related cri…

[deleted]

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#523

Post by bruce511 »

DeathArrow wrote: post #516

People say that gun owning should be restricted. But are the mass shootings done by people who have a gun permit and legally bought the guns? Also, forbidding guns, doesn't change people minds. If someone has a psychiatric condition he can drive a large truck into the crowd, light up a crowded building or event try to poison a water reservoir, destroy a dam, derail a train, make a bomb using gasoline, fertilizer and…

While you are not wrong that there are other ways to commit mass killings, in pretty much all countries with no guns, you don't see these alternate events.

So the outcomes you suggest are perhaps not the logical outcome of removing guns from society.

As an example if I take Europe as a whole (the bits not in an active conflict) there aren't 600 events a year of water poisoning or trucks in crowds etc.

Now true, they have different approaches to handling mental illness, so that's a factor, but even so.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#524

Post by prawn »

belorn wrote: post #113
freediver wrote: post #2

I sincerely hope this does not descend into a flamewar. We can't have discussion about this in an intellectually stimulating way in congress, we can't have this discussion in the media, we obviously can't have this discussion on social media so HN is the last bastion of hope. It is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of complexity. The fact stands that USA has a school shooting problem [1] unlike any other country in…

If we look at the data we can see a significant increase in the last decade, and the mass school shootings are almost exclusively a modern concept from the last 30 years. A question one might ask is then what changed in the USA during those years to trigger this. In addition those factors should be compared to other nations. We should also look at what prevent school shootings. What in society might protect against a…

It is much more difficult to buy a gun in Serbia.

dsizzle, elsewhere in the thread: "You can't buy automatic or semiautomatic weapons, and registration — including background checks and safety training — is required for all gun owners."

Gun ownership is probably quite high because of war in recent decades, but it would be much more difficult for someone to impulsively buy a gun because they were currently angry and looking for an outlet or revenge.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#525

Post by barrysteve »

DeathArrow wrote: post #516

People say that gun owning should be restricted. But are the mass shootings done by people who have a gun permit and legally bought the guns? Also, forbidding guns, doesn't change people minds. If someone has a psychiatric condition he can drive a large truck into the crowd, light up a crowded building or event try to poison a water reservoir, destroy a dam, derail a train, make a bomb using gasoline, fertilizer and…

Trucks have truck licenses and are expensive to obtain, or require getting a job and passing screening.

Lighting up buildings, destroying a dam (how??) and other civil engineering misadventures require way more thought and planning than shooting someone with a gun in your cupboard.

Limiting gun purchases is way easier than tackling all of mental illness. We can't even define half of the reasons why people turn to the 'dark side', let alone be there for them in exactly the right capacity at exactly the right time to save their mind.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#527

Post by bruce511 »

DeathArrow wrote: post #519
librish wrote: post #89

It's time we start legislating based on empirical evidence instead of lofty ideals. Yes, if everyone was responsible perhaps it would be OK for all of us to own firearms. But so many people are utterly irresponsible, and guns make that irresponsibility lethal. People should safely store their fire-arms, but they don't and guns get stolen and sold illegally, or used by their teenage child. People shouldn't point a gun…

Before fire arms being invented people took other's lives with knives, swords or clubs. Or poison. Or bare hands. What makes you think that not owning a gun will make people less murderous?

It's an issue of volume. It's hard for an 18 year old to kill 20 people with their bard hands, or even knives, without being subdued.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#528

Post by watwut »

glogla wrote: post #493
eyelidlessness wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former gun rights advocate who is now in favor of basically eliminating guns except for hunting… > I think gun owners would be much more receptive to regulation if they felt people were genuinely trying to separate narrow and effective laws from broad infringements that annoy many and accomplish little. From both positions, I’d favor regulation that explicitly aims to limit gun possession as much as legally poss…

According to wikipedia, Mexico, Belgium, Czech Republic, Afghanistan and Somalia have basically the same amount of guns per person. Yet some of these are among the safest countries in the world and in some of these you are very likely to get shot basically any time. Just looking at the number of guns is very shortsighted and makes it sound you're focusing on "punishing sinful people" instead of making reasoned policy…

Czech Republic requires you to pass knowledge exam and health examination. The "go to buy semi automatic and have it in an hour at 18" just does not exists there.

Also, use of gun in self-defense is way less permissive then in USA. The stuff that pass as self defense in USA simply would not in Czech - you truly have to have no other choice.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#529

Post by DeathArrow »

In some countries in Europe is legal to own guns, but still, the number of shootings per capita doesn't equal that in US.

So, arguing that people die by being shot is because people can own guns is the same to arguing that people die in car accidents because people are allowed to won cars.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#530

Post by neartheplain »

beloch wrote: post #83

Canada is the U.S.'s neighbour and is probably closer, culturally, than any other nation. Gun ownership is also high in Canada. In terms of guns per capita, the U.S. is #1 by a long shot, but Canada is #7 [1]. In Canada, guns owned per capita is one third of what it is in the U.S.. Canada also has mass shootings. The annual deaths from mass shootings per capita in Canada is 0.032, which is about one third that of the…

>Canada is the U.S.'s neighbour and is probably closer, culturally, than any other nation.

Your point about cultural similarity holds true mainly for descendants of European immigrants. The shared culture here isn't just Marvel movies but values passed down among families from the Old Country like a Christian moral framework, Anglo-American law, the Protestant work ethic, Puritan attidues towards sex, etc. If you break America's homicides down by ethnic category, non-Hispanic whites have a murder rate per 100k of around 2.6 per annum [0]. Canada's murder rate hovers around 1.7. These numbers are roughly comparable, despite the many differences in firearm availability.

America's overall homicide rate is something like 5.7 per 100k per annum. This number is propped up by one ethnic group in particular, Afro-Americans, with a murder rate of over 20 per 100k per annum. This is not just a function of poverty. The white poverty rate is half that of Afro-Americans, yet the murder rate differs by a factor of 10. The Asian-American poverty rate is similarly half that of Afro-Americans, yet the murder rate differs by a factor of closer to 100 (10x less than that of white Americans).

Telling hundreds of millions of law-abiding Americans to disarm themselves because of social, cultural, and economic problems largely confined to a small & largely separate social group is a losing proposition. But asking why that group commits so many murders, even as the first step in bring that number down, is a political third rail too so here we are.

[0] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6631a9.htm

[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CAN/canada/murder-homi...

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