Earlier quoted context omitted.
As someone who was once (not too long ago) blindsided by an unexpectedly- somewhat- negative reference, and who has seen a couple other people similarly blindsided, and where in all these cases the backdoor reference, while not a coached reference, was someone you could have seen it coming for (a manager, a close coworker, etc): It's probably a good idea to secure agreement that, should a reference call come in, you'…
That's actually a good point. You should definitely make sure that you've talked to anyone you're going to list ahead of time. I've done a couple dozen security clearance interviews for co-workers or past co-workers (which is basically a hiring interview on steroids), and the rule of thumb there is absolutely that you want to give as boring an answer as possible. When I read this series of comments, for some reason I…
How to hire an idiot
151–160 of 186 posts
Re: How to hire an idiot
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I have some technical chops - started coding on a TRS-80 Color Computer II in the 80s and never stopped. It's not something I do much of anymore (sadly) as a growing crop of grey hair has convinced my day job c-levels to shovel me into managing groups of technical people. I also do lots of work outside of pure development in my day job, and it has wildly different sets of requirements, but the process is more of…
Two things. First, I wish you'd stop caricaturing everyone hired through a process other than yours as "lone swashbuckling MacGuyvers" or whatnot. I am not laying out a method for hiring "the next legend". Second, it is incumbent on you to get better and more efficient at hiring people, and if you're stuck with "resume, phone screen, all-day interview", you've got your hands tied behind your back. There are so many w…
Near as I can tell your process appears to be first come first serve.
By your own statements, you don't look at resumes, and you apparently don't ask any particular questions about work history or education during your interview process. I'm guessing you have some sort of technical screen since you've alluded to having some sort of highly specialized selection process of some sort.
But I've illuminated you enough with what I've learned to be a solid and reliable process, and I know I must be unfairly characterizing your process above or you wouldn't be in business, so what's yours?
Re: How to hire an idiot
#153There is an art to checking references. Even if a company has a policy of giving bare minimum information, find out a TELEPHONE NUMBER of someone in that company who knows your candidate and start a conversation. I was given a specific script of questions to ask back in the 1990s when I was a community volunteer for my local public school district, doing reference checks on superintendent candidates. A consultant adv…
Also, our own Peroni (IIRC) mentioned that "is $candidate eligible for rehire by your organization" will be answered by nearly all employers. And it's quite useful. [I have no personal experience, just passing this along.]
Another factor is personal differences can lead to that same false positives (negatives?) about that person.
I guess I'm simply trying to say: that question is not always answered based on work ethic or product.
Re: How to hire an idiot
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
I always ask, not because it's required, but because the answer is often enlightening. Judging companies for asking isn't reasonable.
In the mid-90s I got reasonably far down the road with an interview at DE Shaw / Juno and stopped it cold when they demanded school transcripts. I guess I'm unreasonable, but, if you're looking for data points: hi, I'm a candidate who will turn you down cold if you require school information from me. For a long time, I thought this was a New York thing, but, no; I got an offer from a very excellent NY tech/finance co…
The first one is reasonable. The second one isn't, and in my opinion is also a waste of time.
Re: How to hire an idiot
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's obvious that we're both pretty successful at finding people I think, through wildly different processes. I think it's fair to say I prefer to weed out front side via resumes, and you prefer to weed out backside in the technical interview process. And I think that's fair. I do find it interesting on this site in general how I almost disagree with every single thing you post, yet you still seem to make it work, so…
So I don't know you or who you work for, but in the interest of candor (and in a more interesting discussion) let me just say this: I do not agree. Your way is bad. The process you're advocating for recruits poorer candidates. It is also out of step with hiring practices in much of the software industry. Rephrasing slightly and more specifically: if your recruiting process is "resume screen then interview" with no in…
1) calm down
2) get over yourself
You aren't that amazing, even if you have more internet points than I do.
Is it just in your nature to try and insert as much friction as possible in all interactions where you disagree with somebody and hope to win by exhausting what you perceive to be your opponent? Or is it just possible that some of what you say it right and some of it is wrong (likewise for myself)?
So far you've called me a fool twice and insinuated that I'm grossly incompetent, then recognized that you are being tactless. With all due respect, go troll someplace else. You know that HN is not the kind of place for this.
Re: How to hire an idiot
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wasn't offended, and I'm not a hiring manager. But I've definitely done most of my hiring in large boring mega corps. For the small startups I've worked for, willingness to work at a small startup often has major weight in the decision process and can overcome other problems that might exclude them from big corp's process.
I'm personally familiar with the hiring processes at most of the big "mega corps" in the software industry (ie, places where software is the company's key profit center and not a cost center). So, because lots of people are reading this thread, let me clear this up right now: You do not need an "Education" section on your resume to get a job interview at any software company in the valley you'd ever want to work at.…
Yes, you need an education section on your resume. Only apply to companies that you wish to work for. Some will care about it, others won't. Those that don't care won't look at it, those that do will be glad you put it on. It's a Pascal's wager of sorts.
If you are applying to work at Matasano, by all means, delete it from your resume.
I've hired (or participated in the hiring team for) several hundred people for large companies (~35,000 employees, ~45,000 employees, ~125,000 employees respectively) and small (2 employees, 11 employees, 5 employees, 15 employees), for contract work (110 FTEs, 510 FTEs, 30 FTEs) and medium to large projects (30 FTEs, 80 FTEs). I've also cross-hired from different departments, projects, and programs.
I've personally seen probably on the order of 10,000 resumes.
I've never seen a resume of a person that was eventually hired that lacked at least a minimal education section -- and it didn't have to be a college degree.
I've sought out specific hires and have been sought out.
I've hired for positions that are salary only, salary + comission, salary + options, salary + direct stock, or some mix.
I've hired people with highly specialized skillsets and generalists.
I've hired sales people, programmers, analysts, executives, executive assistants, operations managers, operations staff, designers, musicians (yes!) and receptionists.
I've never like using recruiters or big job sites. I prefer to hire people with passion for what they do, and interview for personality as well as technical aptitude. You don't always get that luxury depending on the market and immediate business needs, but it's highly desired.
Education is a big plus, but I've never turned down somebody because of a lack of if they make up for it in experience, portfolio or other compensating factors.
I've never regretted a candidate I turned down. I can count on one hand people that slipped through my radar and ended up as real duds. I can count on two hands people that I turned down that were picked up by other companies and turned out to be real duds for them.
I've had to personally work with most of my hires either as a direct colleague, a report, or as a manager.
Who else uses a process not entirely dissimilar? Any company that asks for a resume, then gives you an interview (of any sort) based on that initial look at you. This includes, Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Intel, Cisco, Oracle and major software focused divisions of other companies like SAIC, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Northrup Grumman, etc.
Unless the company has a site called "apply to work here" where you just give them your name and a callback #, they care about your resume on some level. Even if it's just to have it on file to cover their asses in case of a bad hire.
If you don't want to work for these companies, that's cool. I don't either, and I have the luxury of not doing that at present since I work for a 10 person startup in my day job (and a two person for my night job). But I still consult with #52, #217 and #219 on the 2011 Fortune 500 almost weekly on hiring people.
But I'm just here to tell you the "way it is" (TM). If you want to be considered at these places, and unless you have some kind of other way of demonstrating your personal awesomeness, put an education section down.
Re: How to hire an idiot
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the mid-90s I got reasonably far down the road with an interview at DE Shaw / Juno and stopped it cold when they demanded school transcripts. I guess I'm unreasonable, but, if you're looking for data points: hi, I'm a candidate who will turn you down cold if you require school information from me. For a long time, I thought this was a New York thing, but, no; I got an offer from a very excellent NY tech/finance co…
There's a bit of space between "there's no education listed on your resume, what's up with that?" and "give us every ounce of data there is to be had about you being in school." The first one is reasonable. The second one isn't, and in my opinion is also a waste of time.
I agree, asking "where'd you go to school" isn't particularly offensive.
Re: How to hire an idiot
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
Two things. First, I wish you'd stop caricaturing everyone hired through a process other than yours as "lone swashbuckling MacGuyvers" or whatnot. I am not laying out a method for hiring "the next legend". Second, it is incumbent on you to get better and more efficient at hiring people, and if you're stuck with "resume, phone screen, all-day interview", you've got your hands tied behind your back. There are so many w…
Well, not that I was talking to you (I was talking to cookiecaper) But I appreciate the interest even if your reply is a little bit of a response to something I didn't say. Near as I can tell your process appears to be first come first serve. By your own statements, you don't look at resumes, and you apparently don't ask any particular questions about work history or education during your interview process. I'm guess…
A good starting point is http://www.matasano.com/careers.
But: that isn't the entirety of our recruiting process; it's just the portion most visible to applicants.
Re: How to hire an idiot
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
So I don't know you or who you work for, but in the interest of candor (and in a more interesting discussion) let me just say this: I do not agree. Your way is bad. The process you're advocating for recruits poorer candidates. It is also out of step with hiring practices in much of the software industry. Rephrasing slightly and more specifically: if your recruiting process is "resume screen then interview" with no in…
I think you need to do two things 1) calm down 2) get over yourself You aren't that amazing, even if you have more internet points than I do. Is it just in your nature to try and insert as much friction as possible in all interactions where you disagree with somebody and hope to win by exhausting what you perceive to be your opponent? Or is it just possible that some of what you say it right and some of it is wrong (…
Now, saying I don't believe you is also pretty rude, so: I'm sorry if that upset you. Getting upset is a reasonable response to rudeness.
As I don't believe we're actually having a conversation in good faith, the simplest solution to this problem is to stop replying to your comments, which is what I'm going to do.
Re: How to hire an idiot
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like Eagle Scout on the resume. I'd put it there. (I'm not one).
Watch out though. Lots of people lie about being eagle scouts, and you can't verify it without having their troop # and contacting BSA headquarters.
Presumably, that never happens on resumes with real career track records; if you have an established career, the upside to lying about being an Eagle Scout is relatively microscopic. I probably wouldn't "yea" an inexperienced candidate simply on account of their Boy Scout record. I have to wonder what these people are thinking.