Why isn’t new technology making us more productive? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#481

Post by taffronaut » Wed, May 25, 2022, 9:15 AM UTC

andreilys wrote: post #222

Barrin92 wrote: post #122

Because new technology is as Thiel often quips limited to the world of bits rather than the world of atoms. Paul Krugman once asked, if you go into an average house right now and you take out all the screens, could you tell that you're not in the 80s? Gordon in the Rise and Fall of American Growth gives a similar example, what if you went into a time capsule between say 1890 and 1950 compared to 1960 and 2010? In one…

The difference between a car right now and a car 30 years ago is that you can now play angry birds on a tablet Except we now have cars with self-driving (however limited, it's a massive improvement over a car from 30 years). Another interesting thought experiment is, how many digital services, modern tech and so on would you be willing to trade for something mundane, say your dishwasher, a hot shower, the toilet, a c…

I guess if you'd choose a mobile phone over soap, then you're exclusively into virtual socialising rather real socialising.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#482

Post by cudgy » Wed, May 25, 2022, 9:18 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #432

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know electric cars aren't a new invention, right? First ones came about in the 1880s, and they were quite common in the early 20th century. Sure, not common in 1950, but the user experience difference between an ICE car and electric is, to a 1950s or 1910s person, basically noise. The ICE car is noisy, electric not. The acceleration, ride comfort, features - all are similar enough to be interchangeable to someone…

> The acceleration, ride comfort, features This is not true at all. Ride comfort and features is massively improved in todays cars compared to 1950. Or to 1980. That goes for both the driver and passenger.

Depends on what you want in a car and what you mean by ride comfort. Very few cars made today ride as smoothly as a 1970-80 land yachts made by Cadillac and Lincoln for example. Also, many newer cars are unrepairable without special equipment and some don’t even provide service manuals to owners. Good luck getting your Tesla fixed quickly while traveling in remote locations versus a traditional car. Good luck finding a new battery for it if China supply lines are hampered by a pandemic or some other issue. Electric cars aren’t a panacea.

Bottom line is that cars have been available to get us from point A to point B at high speeds for over 100 years and that is why we buy them.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#483

Post by nosianu » Wed, May 25, 2022, 9:21 AM UTC

nwienert wrote: post #480

nosianu wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main point though is that you don't accomplish more. You get from A to B in about the same time. How much you like the experience does not change that there is not really a difference in the outcomes. I find it regrettable that sooo many comments focusing on "like" rather than actual hard results. The original topic is about the latter, not about the subjective experiences. And for results, a 1960s care got you f…

What a horribly myopic take, it completely changes the "outcomes". I am way more productive and happy: - I save more money so I have more to spend towards productive uses. - I don't die as often, living is productive. - I listen to podcasts, diverse videos (just listening) or music, learning more during my drive. - I call friends and family, enhancing connections and communicating more. - The car drives for me, leavi…

To get to your conclusion you ignore 99% of what my comment si about and concentrate on a single thing, cars. I don't like these kinds of arguments where people carefully select one minor thing and pretend it's the main point. I wrote about quite ab bit more, and cars were not even close to the center of my post!

> I call friends and family, enhancing connections and communicating more.

I also question the validity of statements such as these. It does not seem to me to be supported by evidence that our connections between people - and lets concentrate on connections between already connected people to remove the question if new tech lets us make new ones more often - are qualitatively better than in the past. I would think such a statement very much deserves a [Citation needed] response. I think a lot of your statements are equally... creative and subjective, or worse ("I don't die as often, living is productive.").

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#484

Post by nwienert » Wed, May 25, 2022, 9:26 AM UTC

nosianu wrote: post #483

nwienert wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a horribly myopic take, it completely changes the "outcomes". I am way more productive and happy: - I save more money so I have more to spend towards productive uses. - I don't die as often, living is productive. - I listen to podcasts, diverse videos (just listening) or music, learning more during my drive. - I call friends and family, enhancing connections and communicating more. - The car drives for me, leavi…

To get to your conclusion you ignore 99% of what my comment si about and concentrate on a single thing, cars. I don't like these kinds of arguments where people carefully select one minor thing and pretend it's the main point. I wrote about quite ab bit more, and cars were not even close to the center of my post! > I call friends and family, enhancing connections and communicating more. I also question the validity o…

Sorry, I use a phone to look up transit info and it's 100x more convenient.

There's a massive and tangential discussion to be had about tech and it's influence on culture and connectivity, but that's not for this thread.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#485

Post by cudgy » Wed, May 25, 2022, 9:29 AM UTC

nwienert wrote: post #306

unchocked wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 95 4Runner restored to like new condition would be an excellent ride today, Gad mileage notwithstanding. Run out vs. new is a straw man w/r/t/ old tech vs new.

It was super well maintained, nothing was wrong with it.

You replaced all the shocks, suspension bushings, motor mounts, tie rods, seat cushions, etc? Without doing all that, you cannot compare the ride of a 20 year old car to a new car. You probably thought the car had nothing wrong with it, but you just got used to the harsher ride due the components wearing out over time.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#486

Post by nosianu » Wed, May 25, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

nwienert wrote: post #484

nosianu wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To get to your conclusion you ignore 99% of what my comment si about and concentrate on a single thing, cars. I don't like these kinds of arguments where people carefully select one minor thing and pretend it's the main point. I wrote about quite ab bit more, and cars were not even close to the center of my post! > I call friends and family, enhancing connections and communicating more. I also question the validity o…

Sorry, I use a phone to look up transit info and it's 100x more convenient. There's a massive and tangential discussion to be had about tech and it's influence on culture and connectivity, but that's not for this thread.

> Sorry, I use a phone to look up transit info and it's 100x more convenient.

I'm a bit baffled, what does your reply have to do with either of my previous comments? I mean what I actually wrote, I'm aware I prominently mentioned such a convenience feature. It's just that there was no question that it was convenient.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#487

Post by cudgy » Wed, May 25, 2022, 9:35 AM UTC

nwienert wrote: post #480

nosianu wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main point though is that you don't accomplish more. You get from A to B in about the same time. How much you like the experience does not change that there is not really a difference in the outcomes. I find it regrettable that sooo many comments focusing on "like" rather than actual hard results. The original topic is about the latter, not about the subjective experiences. And for results, a 1960s care got you f…

What a horribly myopic take, it completely changes the "outcomes". I am way more productive and happy: - I save more money so I have more to spend towards productive uses. - I don't die as often, living is productive. - I listen to podcasts, diverse videos (just listening) or music, learning more during my drive. - I call friends and family, enhancing connections and communicating more. - The car drives for me, leavi…

Virtually everything you mentioned has nothing to do with the point that was so eloquently stated by the above poster.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#488

Post by nwienert » Wed, May 25, 2022, 9:37 AM UTC

nosianu wrote: post #486

nwienert wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I use a phone to look up transit info and it's 100x more convenient. There's a massive and tangential discussion to be had about tech and it's influence on culture and connectivity, but that's not for this thread.

> Sorry, I use a phone to look up transit info and it's 100x more convenient. I'm a bit baffled, what does your reply have to do with either of my previous comments? I mean what I actually wrote, I'm aware I prominently mentioned such a convenience feature. It's just that there was no question that it was convenient.

It's a direct response to this:

> It was when I looked at the tram station not far form my house, which for a year or so has been upgraded to have a display with the expected arrival times of the next three trams.

> It sure is very convenient! However, compared to a similar transport system of fifty years ago, which achieved the same thing, we now have a lot of additional effort to maintain such infrastructure. It got waayyyy more complex, all the electronics, and software has to be written and maintained, screens installed and maintained, computer infrastructure - all just for some slight improvement in convenience. Is it worth it? I have no conclusion, I just have to think about that when I hear yet another "we need more 'Fachkräfte'" (skilled workers). How many people do we need for mostly just minor convenience upgrades?

You made up some arbitrary thing that you admit improves quality of life, and I pointed out that your example doesn't really even capture the difference. 40 years ago you had to ask around, or call to ask about the times of tram. Now you can find the exact times, delays, of any tram anywhere directly from your tiny pocket supercomputer. The difference is so stark, and yet you focused on signs at the station when the revolution was in your hand.

---

Realizing you brought up like 5 different things, and now every time I refute one you're motte and bailey-ing to the next thing. I don't owe you to refute every point you put out, the thread here was a specific example of tech improving productivity, and I think it's definitive.

The study is ridiculous and proves nothing, and the rest is pathos and too broad to reply to.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#489

Post by nwienert » Wed, May 25, 2022, 9:44 AM UTC

cudgy wrote: post #485

nwienert wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was super well maintained, nothing was wrong with it.

You replaced all the shocks, suspension bushings, motor mounts, tie rods, seat cushions, etc? Without doing all that, you cannot compare the ride of a 20 year old car to a new car. You probably thought the car had nothing wrong with it, but you just got used to the harsher ride due the components wearing out over time.

Yea, actually it was fully restored by the previous owner who was a mechanic, new engine (and gaskets which were famous for exploding on those models), suspension and all. Under 100k miles too and the body was perfect, even interior was amazing. I loved the car, but it just absolutely doesn’t compare to modern cars.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#490

Post by ThePC007 » Wed, May 25, 2022, 9:45 AM UTC

rowanG077 wrote: post #235

marginalia_nu wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a weird disconnect with computers. The software we use is 1000 times more complex than it was 20 years ago, leading to performance that really have not improved a lot, and a lot of functional stagnation. Many applications are slower to start today than they were 10 years ago, because back then they were binaries and today they are Electron apps. Your average web based word processor with cloud storage perform…

> The limit is human perception. I couldn't disagree more. The general choppiness a modern application has is noticeable by literally everyone. I'm so bothered by it that I even went back to a wired mouse recently because the latency of my bluetooth mouse made me uneasy. And another point is that VR is rewriting entire technology stacks JUST to get lower latencies, precisely because a lot of people just get sick if i…

I've actually really struggled with slow, unoptimised software forever. Microsoft Word's Equation editor is so slow and sluggish that once you've written one page of equations or more it just becomes unusable, since it's not feasible to wait several seconds for the equations you typed in to appear.

It's the same with code editors. Sublime Text 3 is crazy responsive and it's a joy to use, however I missed certain features that VS Code had, so I switched, however the latency issues are very noticeable. Typing is a little slower, switching tabs is very slow (like 100-ish ms?) and when you're opening new files you could literally watch the text being color coded before your eyes on my i7 laptop I used back then. Things got worse when I started developing Flutter applications while running the Flutter and Dart extensions. VS Code would sometimes take several seconds to react to me pressing the backspace button, which made it incredibly frustrating to work with.

How is it possible that our computers are so incredibly performant these days, yet seemingly not fast enough for simple document editing or text editing tasks?