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Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

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471–480 of 603 posts

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#471

Because new technology is as Thiel often quips limited to the world of bits rather than the world of atoms. Paul Krugman once asked, if you go into an average house right now and you take out all the screens, could you tell that you're not in the 80s? Gordon in the Rise and Fall of American Growth gives a similar example, what if you went into a time capsule between say 1890 and 1950 compared to 1960 and 2010? In one…

There's a weird disconnect with computers. The software we use is 1000 times more complex than it was 20 years ago, leading to performance that really have not improved a lot, and a lot of functional stagnation. Many applications are slower to start today than they were 10 years ago, because back then they were binaries and today they are Electron apps. Your average web based word processor with cloud storage perform…

Recently I opened a Full HD video in a web browser, connected my laptop to a TV using an HDMI cable, moved the browser window over to the TV screen, and watched the video. And it just worked, with sound and all. I didn't have to download or configure anything, neither on the computer nor on the TV. That would have been utterly unbelievable 20 years ago, bordering on magic (especially the no-download/no-configuration part).

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#472

Manafacturing productivity is though the roof. PCBs are incredibly cheap now, and lead times are in days. Micros that can do almost anything, bristling with peripherals and programmable in C or even just running Linux, rather than hand assembly or discrete circuits. Dedicated devices that cost cents handle tasks that used to take organisations months and months to design. All sorts of materials make things that used…

I was thinking something similar (if narrower). In my universe (embedded systems), we have entire BLE stacks-in-a-box shipped to us by manufacturers now. That would have been inconceivable 20 years ago. Now more than ever, peripherals can be interconnected using a little bit-twiddling, automating a lot of the system logic that would have been handled explicitly in the past. To be fair, none of that matters if we aren…

We are doing useful things with them. The price of manufactured goods has plummeted, driven largely by automation and control. Maybe we don't really see that because first world cost of living has largely risen to match, driven mostly by housing and energy costs and healthcare. But in the less developed world, people can afford a lot more manufactured goods than they could 30 years ago. Which is at least partly because in absolute terms, those goods cost very little.

Sure, a TV 30 years ago was still "just" a rectangular screen, but if you lived in rural Slovenia, you still probably couldn't afford one. Now, it's probably still expensive to you to get a basic flat panel TV, but it's not as wildly unaffordable as it was - adjusting for inflation, TVs are 10x cheaper today then 1985. And this doesn't only go for electronics, loads of things cost less and are more available. The only things that might not be are things like raw materials and energy where supply, demand and other factors keep prices high over time.

For example aluminium was $0.60/lb in the 80s, now it's $1.40. This is actually a slight drop in price after inflation ($0.60 then is $1.61) but certainly not as cheap as you'd expect if the only factors were production efficiency.

Of course a lot of micros do end up in complete junk. Which is sad for a lot of reasons, not only the environmental costs but also the wasted human effort of designing the disposable Bluetooth-enabled dog toothbrush in the first place.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#473

Because new technology is as Thiel often quips limited to the world of bits rather than the world of atoms. Paul Krugman once asked, if you go into an average house right now and you take out all the screens, could you tell that you're not in the 80s? Gordon in the Rise and Fall of American Growth gives a similar example, what if you went into a time capsule between say 1890 and 1950 compared to 1960 and 2010? In one…

I agree with your points, but software will enable revolutionary devices. I think my dream robot butler that will clean my house, iron my clothes, prepare food based on grand chef recipes, take deliveries and repaint the walls while I am not around is just around the corner. This is mostly a software problem. In the military space software is what is making the difference in ukraine: drones, self guided missiles, intelligence. Then you have self driving cars.

As an office worker, I’d stay what is capping productivity right now is actually not good enough software. Too many manual processes done by hand, copy-pasting in excel. It is still too slow and expensive to develop software to do automation and those things are still too damn complex for business users to automate it themselves.

But in that space the gains of productivity have been massive. MS Outlook has eliminated the job of a secretary. Remember the armies of accountants computing financial reports. By cleaning up an old room on a trading floor I found a stack of blank paper trade tickets (printed in 1999…), you’d have a guy running between sales and traders and ops to get it signed off. Then ops people typing it. I read a book of a guy in the French secret service saying that his career consisted in compiling information about what paper people wrote, who knows who, and to know your way around that file so you could search it efficiently. This guy has been replaced by google and linkedin. The hours saved finding information immediately, saving you a trip to the library are countless. I think software has enabled huge productivity gains and there are more to come.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#474

Because new technology is as Thiel often quips limited to the world of bits rather than the world of atoms. Paul Krugman once asked, if you go into an average house right now and you take out all the screens, could you tell that you're not in the 80s? Gordon in the Rise and Fall of American Growth gives a similar example, what if you went into a time capsule between say 1890 and 1950 compared to 1960 and 2010? In one…

30 years ago in order to navigate somewhere you had to ask someone for directions and write down notes. If you missed a turn, god help you. We fundamentally move through the world vastly differently thanks to digital maps. Many people (and in a few years, the majority) are doing so in cars that use electric motors instead of internal combustion engines. One way to tell whether you're in an 80s house would be to look…

Oh come on, maps had been a thing 30 years ago, just not digital. General availability of the internet on the other hand was a real revolution, GPS too, but such revolutionary events are still pretty rare (e.g. I don't count the mobile phone as such a revolutionary jump because it "just" combined things into the same device that were separate before).

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#475

Because new technology is as Thiel often quips limited to the world of bits rather than the world of atoms. Paul Krugman once asked, if you go into an average house right now and you take out all the screens, could you tell that you're not in the 80s? Gordon in the Rise and Fall of American Growth gives a similar example, what if you went into a time capsule between say 1890 and 1950 compared to 1960 and 2010? In one…

Try 1960 surgery sometime. Or 1960 chemo, or cardio imaging, if you’re really unlucky. Or 1960 airfares or jet engines. Or 1960 machine shop equipment. The last 30 years? I can exhaustively research a technical subject at home, without getting dressed, thanks to that Russian lady. My Google Drive has a departmental library, suitable for the old Bell Labs, of books on lasers and optics. A CAD (design) and CAM (send machine instructions to a tool) program that was utterly unavailable, with attempts at this in Fortune 50 companies and the DOD, is FREE, with rotatable shaded solid models, FEA tools, and support for hundreds of machines. GPS in a strange area? Cheap expresso makers at home? Adjust your air conditioner from 3000 miles away with your phone? Take studio quality pictures with it? Servomotors and ballscrews on tools now cheaper the gear trains and lead screws they replace? Measure a whole room with a cheap handheld thingy?

OK I’ll shut up.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 30 years ago in order to navigate somewhere you had to ask someone for directions and write down notes. If you missed a turn, god help you. We fundamentally move through the world vastly differently thanks to digital maps. Many people (and in a few years, the majority) are doing so in cars that use electric motors instead of internal combustion engines. Honestly, it seems like you're just picking some incremental o…

> And some of those other things are debatable. For instance: I deliberately stopped using GPS for several years, because I realized it was preventing me from building up geographic/navigational knowledge, and instead was just training me to follow instructions blindly and never learn anything That’s a fine personal choice to make if you value building up geographic knowledge for its own sake, but I don’t really get…

I drove from California to Panama 3 years ago. In Central America Google navigation was not only useless, but sometimes dangerous so we turned it off. We were only asking locals for directions. After a few days we did not experience any inconvenience.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, there are billions more people who demand wood for their shelter. Is it reasonable to expect that quality of wood, which I assume is almost purely a function of time, to maintain the same accessibility?

I'm not sure that billions of people build houses with wood. It's definitely an American thing, Europe not so much (bricks and concrete.) China is concrete. India? South America? Mexico? Africa?

Because they do not have ample wood, not even the lower quality type farmed in US/Canada today. More specifically, the supply of the type of old school high quality wood being talked about in previous comments from 1920s and whatnot would certainly be impossible to satisfy global demand. Which is also a big reason why it is not used now. You can get it, it is just extremely expensive.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPS is nice and all, but I would not say we move vastly differently compared to 30 years ago or even 70 years ago (basically, since interstate highways were developed). And electric motors are just a horizontal change in technology. They may have better acceleration than ICEs, but we're still going to be fundamentally traveling the same way. Only if and when self-driving becomes a thing, or personal drone transport v…

I upgraded from a 95 4Runner to a 22 Outlander and it’s like a spaceship on wheels in comparison. Literally every piece of the car is in a different class and the tech is insane that just didn’t exist then, I mean it basically drives itself. It’s dramatically safer, more efficient, comfier, faster, quieter. I no longer hate long drives, they’re quite nice. The speakers are amazing and the road noise is basically gone…

The main point though is that you don't accomplish more. You get from A to B in about the same time. How much you like the experience does not change that there is not really a difference in the outcomes.

I find it regrettable that sooo many comments focusing on "like" rather than actual hard results. The original topic is about the latter, not about the subjective experiences. And for results, a 1960s care got you from A to B pretty much the same as a 2022 one.

That does not make the subjective aspect invalid, but I would at least like to see some self-awareness in comments that we are talking about at least two separate things, and arguments for one are not useful for the other.

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Recently I also found myself thinking about another aspect. It was when I looked at the tram station not far form my house, which for a year or so has been upgraded to have a display with the expected arrival times of the next three trams.

It sure is very convenient! However, compared to a similar transport system of fifty years ago, which achieved the same thing, we now have a lot of additional effort to maintain such infrastructure. It got waayyyy more complex, all the electronics, and software has to be written and maintained, screens installed and maintained, computer infrastructure - all just for some slight improvement in convenience.

Is it worth it? I have no conclusion, I just have to think about that when I hear yet another "we need more 'Fachkräfte'" (skilled workers). How many people do we need for mostly just minor convenience upgrades?

Sure, the transport system also can get more efficient with things like those displays. But here again, A LOT of additional effort, planning and thinking has to go into it for such gains to not just be theoretical. If we can afford it - sure, why not.

It's just that I have to think about the challenges ahead: The more stuff we produce and have to use energy on the worse for climate change and resource use.

I think it is good when new stuff is tried, but I have doubts that all those many minor "upgrades" are worth spreading so far. The effort for minor gains is gigantic, and we don't have free power, overabundance of skilled workers and free (material) resources (yet?). How much worse would for example said city tram system really be with less sophistication and IT?

I've become a bit skeptical about my own line of work. IT is nice and all and I love it, but it also takes a lot of effort to prepare and also to maintain. Here took, too many only look at the gains, which of course do exist. But there is a bias "newer and more complex is better" IMO.

Very much related:

"Humans solve problems by adding complexity, even when it’s against our best interests"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/04/16/bias-prob...

Nature (paywall, try Sci-Hub): https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00592-0

> Adding is favoured over subtracting in problem solving

> A series of problem-solving experiments reveal that people are more likely to consider solutions that add features than solutions that remove them, even when removing features is more efficient.

I think our economic and financial system is an additional driver. Not doing something is "being lazy" and is punished (unless you are wealthy already). If you manage to sell stuff that is useless or even detrimental, you are fine, and there still is a wide gap between this and doing something criminal.

It looks to me like our own biases and our society and systems push us towards increasing complexity just for complexity's sake. Then come the biases that let us find the justifications but not see the downsides nearly as clearly. We also have a huge bias for measurable/quantifiable outcomes, and what things with an attachment to money.

All this complexity relies on huge supply chains also for maintenance. Given the possible issues ahead, both political and climate, maybe less complexity and more locality and less international-network requirement might be a good idea.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#479
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I try to turn GPS off as much as possible but I also frequently consult it even for routes that I know well. I'm not saying it's not useful. I'm just saying it's not as big of an advance as it's being made out to be. > And come on, maps are excellent, there's no garbage there. I've above clarified, but my "garbage" comment was not referring to maps, but other kinds of material you'd fine online. Maps are…

Not only gps, but just being able to find nearby hotels and check vacancy and prices. When I was a kid, we would pull in at multiple hotels and someone would have to go in and ask for prices and if they had vacancy. My mom would usually go and ask for the price because my dad felt like they gave her better prices. In fact, a few times they did - as he sent her in after he asked. So not only convenience and leveling t…

Actually, I recall being able to haggle prices at hotels before the online booking sites became prominent. Also, there were travel agents (a rare breed these days) who could assist with booking flights, hotels, and sightseeing. There seems to be advantages and disadvantages to each era.

However, I largely consider technology advances to be rather unimpressive, especially services and apps built on the internet. Access to information has definitely been improved though, but this is one of the few major improvements and now with more information being siloed behind corporate mega-sites we may be regressing back to the libraries for free access again.

Re: Why isn’t new technology making us more productive?

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upgraded from a 95 4Runner to a 22 Outlander and it’s like a spaceship on wheels in comparison. Literally every piece of the car is in a different class and the tech is insane that just didn’t exist then, I mean it basically drives itself. It’s dramatically safer, more efficient, comfier, faster, quieter. I no longer hate long drives, they’re quite nice. The speakers are amazing and the road noise is basically gone…

The main point though is that you don't accomplish more. You get from A to B in about the same time. How much you like the experience does not change that there is not really a difference in the outcomes. I find it regrettable that sooo many comments focusing on "like" rather than actual hard results. The original topic is about the latter, not about the subjective experiences. And for results, a 1960s care got you f…

What a horribly myopic take, it completely changes the "outcomes".

I am way more productive and happy:

- I save more money so I have more to spend towards productive uses.

- I don't die as often, living is productive.

- I listen to podcasts, diverse videos (just listening) or music, learning more during my drive.

- I call friends and family, enhancing connections and communicating more.

- The car drives for me, leaving me more relaxed and energized when I reach my destination, and I am more likely to travel further than I would normally.

- The car is much safer, lowering anxiety, so I use it more often for productive uses and generally feel safer and happier, and therefore more productive.

- It accelerates and coasts at higher speeds easily, so I get there faster.

- My back doesn't get sore nearly as easily (I get back pain easily sitting up), a huge productivity boost.

- The AC is cooler and heat is faster, sound is nicer, every material is nicer, tint is stronger, wipers are automatic and fast, lights are automatic and fast, etc etc - all this adds up to lower stress and higher safety, meaning less death, less injury, higher likelihood to use it productively, and less stress.

To wave away these things as minor is a very Thiel-like thing to do, but I find it ridiculous. You want to go to space? To be in the most inhospitable environment possible? What does that do for us, again?

I'd rather have better Wifi and more legroom on a flight than a rocketship that went 2x faster but didn't have either. We didn't get flying cars, we got unlimited knowledge and communication at the speed of light, even when flying through air. I'd like to fly a car, but again:

Cars from then 2020s are spaceships compared to cars from the 90s, while cars from the 90s are not really much different than those from the 60s. Within a decade we likely have self-driving electric cars completely dominate, and suddenly the Theilians look silly because all these "non-important" advances like, oh, computers and AI, suddenly solved a big problem, ignoring the fact that those same computers are already solving medical problems left and right, landing rockets from space, folding proteins, re-inventing Chess and Go, saving millions of man-hours of work, connecting people all over the world and greatly enhancing their general knowledge, amongst a few hundreds of other things.

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