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Much philanthropy is a routinized exchange between salaried bureaucrats

newyorker.com

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Re: Much philanthropy is a routinized exchange between salaried bureaucrats

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, I don't understand the logic of more taxes are good, but refusing to donate until others do it too. It seems that the harm is the same either way, and the benefit/$ is the same either way too. If taxes go up, I receive X harm (lost dollars) and X + [huge number] of dollars go to the government. If I give X dollars to the government, I receive exactly the same harm, but the benefit to the government is just X…

Re 1)... Im genuinely interested in understanding your first position because I still don't get it. I would understand advocating for a universal tax increase + huge benefit while donating in the mean time, just not why it isn't worth it to you today. If you think (X harm)(number of taxpayers) to save (Y lives)(number of taxpayers) is worth it, shouldn't that hold just as true for your personal case of X(1) and Y(1)?…

Re 1):

There are a lot of reasons it can be reasonable to advocate higher taxes while not donating money to the government. Aside from what I already covered, it might be that a donation isn't reliable or predictable as ordinary tax income, so a donation in fact may not provide as much value per dollar as tax increases. You can't plan a budget around voluntary donations amounting to 0.1% of your total intake for the year, which weren't expected in the first place and may not show up next year. Consider the difference between winning $1200 on a scratcher ticket, versus $100/m increased income indefinitely. You may win $1200 again next year, but you might not, while a guaranteed $100/m is something you can count on and factor into your budget. Or the donor may perceive their peers to be free riding on the benefits their money provides (in the form of a more-stable society, et c.) if they simply donate the cash, so prefer taxation to donation. Or they may believe the reduction in power of the rich to influence society is part of the benefit of taxing the rich more, in the first place, in which case voluntarily reducing their own power is hardly a solution, and may even be counter-productive if that money could have funded advocacy for raising taxes on the rich, instead (or any of several similar reasons one, including a rich "one", may have to advocate for changes to the tax code that happen to increase one's own taxes, that aren't strictly related to increasing the government's budget).

At a level lower than the rich, it may be easier to follow: it can be consistent for me to believe that we should all pay more taxes to increase the budget for our school district, while not donating the difference myself, because I believe I need that money to cover deficiencies in their services until such time as a tax increase passes. Or, to take the harm angle again, consider the effect one person donating $500/m to schools has. $500/m is a lot of money for an individual (well, maybe not on HN, but for most folks it is). It hurts quite a bit to give that away. However, it does almost nothing for the district's budget, especially if they can't count on you continuing to donate it. Now, $500/household (I'm using simple figures to keep this clear, of course it never works like this exactly) in the whole district? By law, not just relying on people's whims? Now the schools can really do something with it (or waste it, but if you think they're just gonna waste it, you're also not gonna donate the money, so that's outside the scope of this).

As for 2: yeah, I was equivocating a bit :-) Still, in a world where marginal-utility sure appears to be a real thing as far as how people experience money, one person's one-millionth dollar really isn't the same thing as their first dollar, and it doesn't make much sense to treat dollars $1 and $1,000,000 the same just because some people don't have that millionth dollar in the first place.

Ultimately, one's view on progressive taxation will come down to what one believes fairness is, which is... harder to nail down than one might think, and reasonable people can disagree.

Re: Much philanthropy is a routinized exchange between salaried bureaucrats

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even when the donor sincerely believes they're doing what's best for people ... They are wealthy people who have no experience or knowledge of what people without wealth need.

To be fair, that also describes a large portion of politicians.

I don't agree. Politicians aren't perfect, but they hear from their constituents a lot, especially the unhappy ones.

Re: Much philanthropy is a routinized exchange between salaried bureaucrats

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's fine to be in favor of social engineering programs, but it's not consistent to then complain that philanthropists' charity comes with strings attached. The government's charity does as well. I don't know what you mean: This doesn't seem to fit the common definition of social engineering, or we could call stop lights and tax forms social engineering; so I can't say I'm in favor, against, etc. And 'strings attac…

I mean in the sense that it's not cash assistance to the poor; instead, it's the government saying "these are the things you need to buy" and providing a voucher system for those particular things. You cannot decide that you want to economize on food and spend half your SNAP benefits on liquor, and so you cannot decide that you want to economize on food and spend half your SNAP benefits on a car repair to upgrade to…

I think that stretches the definition of social engineering to the point of meaninglessness. Everything government (or other powerful actors) does or doesn't do will influence people one way or the other. One could also say that we don't limit SNAP spending, we enable it or certain items. The money also can't go to building supplies.

Re: Much philanthropy is a routinized exchange between salaried bureaucrats

#234
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This seems to assume that the government is benevolent, whereas private actors are not. Not so much benevolent as accountable. The government, for all its faults, has a huge edifice of checks and balances, and while the gears grind slowly they do limit how far astray things can go. A private 503c is a real wild west in comparison.

If a charity to which I contribute does a single thing I don't like, I can decide to never give them another penny. If the government doesn't do a single thing I like, more than half my income still goes to taxes each year to fund the government (income, property, sales, etc.), and there is nothing I can realistically do to change that. Which one is accountable?

When we're talking about something that's supposed to support a whole community, being "accountable" to the whims of one individual is not a meaningful level of accountability. Changing government policy requires broad consensus from many people, which is exactly as it should be.

Re: Much philanthropy is a routinized exchange between salaried bureaucrats

#235

Yup. Money isn't the issue with nonprofits (well aside from paying your execs multiples of the max on the GS scale while whining if the low level staffers ask to be paid in line with the GS payscale) The issue is they pay their executives $$$$$ while insisting low level employees take much less than they'd make as government employees while feeling entitled to shape someone's career for the rest of their LIFE if they…

the two pay scales you posted are not a complete picture. The CEO in the non-profit makes $397,684, while the top GS15 step 10 makes $176,300. First, the more appropriate comparison would be the Senior Executive Service (SES) pay scale which tops out at $226,300. Additionally, a non-profit executive takes retirement out of their earnings of $400K, while the government employee's retirement is guaranteed and does not…

Hi WaitWaitWha,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

>First, the two pay scales you posted are not a complete picture. The CEO in the non-profit makes $397,684, while the top GS15 step 10 makes $176,300. First, the more appropriate comparison would be the Senior Executive Service (SES) pay scale which tops out at $226,300. Additionally, a non-profit executive takes retirement out of their earnings of $400K, while the government employee's retirement is guaranteed and does not come out of their $226K.

You're correct my reply was not completely accurate with regard to numbers, so thanks for that.

But, to be clear the issue is the CEO justified folks payrates (mostly attorneys recently out of law school from across the T14) based on what a JD would make on the GS scale[0], while conversely the executives, as you can see from the data, made more.

This was also a smaller nonprofit, I've met folks with similar salaries but much larger teams or orgs.

Meanwhile, here it is clearly stated that someone with "3 years of graduate-level education leading to a Ph.D. degree or Ph.D. degree or equivalent doctoral degree" should make GS-11 (not clear on what step):

https://www.generalschedule.org/articles/general-schedule-ed...

Also, to be CRYSTAL clear:

I also did not CHOOSE nonprofits.

It was my perception they refused to hire me because if things like very openly stating I would not be applying to the NSA because I was worried I'd be asked to engage in illegal activities, based on my readings on cases like Jewel v. NSA[2].

When I was charting career paths I also (verbally) expressed concern about scholarship for service -- that a president might institute a government shutdown or otherwise interfere with folks ability to fulfill the requirements, causing them to be forced to pay the loans bqack, which IIRC happened during the Trump administration:

https://www.cyberscoop.com/government-shutdown-cybersecurity...

(In fact, one the last decent contact I had in the federal government stopped speaking to me when I tried to clarify whay became of that fiasco, it's not in any publicly available news source I could find)

So from my perspective, by the time I was at Center for Democracy & Technology, we were in a "fall of the USSR" situation. I had to repeatedly tell people "this isn't high school" as I was stymied despite having more intelligence capabilities than some small countries.

That meant that absent a VERY compelling reason, if there is never a context where someone opposes me when I've done nothing my entire life but work as what only fairly recently has been termed a "public interest technologist", it makes me question people's integrity, especially paired with things like words and phrases from private conversations making their way into CDT whitepapers after my departure and after the new CEO refused to even interview me.

It is completely unacceptable that across two different leaders this pattern of gatekeeping access to employment has continued.

I emailed the dean at Georgetown, William Treanor, about the above mentioned plagiarism issue, but didn't get a substantive reply.

I am not a lawyer, but speaking as someone who has not crossed an international border since the Obama administration, it's my understanding espionage is a capital offense... so on a long enough timeline if I cannot understand why people are making hiring decisions, paired with rampant illegal behavior, paired with refusals to connect me with work or compensate me for past harms, then all I can do is openly muse what motivates folks as I read and respond to publicly available information.

For context, I currently reside in the City of Pittsburgh.

I am tired of writing out long paragraphs like the above.

The last time I put this much energy into a post on the internet, a crowd formed outside the Mayor's house, and we got a new one. Then the Boy Scouts went bankrupt, and Mike Doyle (the cult adjacent[1] congressman) decided not to run for another term.

In closing, I feel that I was underpaid, illegally fired, then subjected to electronic and physical attacks by members of so called civil society.

I encourage anyone who desires to, to read the above and reply.

I'm happy to have a discussion.

I will do my best to be honest and accurate, but it may "trigger" some folks who aren't used to having hard questions asked in a public forum.

Have a nice evening, and thanks again for those numbers, sincerely.

[0] https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries... [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/09/13/frat-house-for... [2] https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/jewel/jewel.complaint.pdf

Re: Much philanthropy is a routinized exchange between salaried bureaucrats

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re 1)... Im genuinely interested in understanding your first position because I still don't get it. I would understand advocating for a universal tax increase + huge benefit while donating in the mean time, just not why it isn't worth it to you today. If you think (X harm)(number of taxpayers) to save (Y lives)(number of taxpayers) is worth it, shouldn't that hold just as true for your personal case of X(1) and Y(1)?…

Re 1): There are a lot of reasons it can be reasonable to advocate higher taxes while not donating money to the government. Aside from what I already covered, it might be that a donation isn't reliable or predictable as ordinary tax income, so a donation in fact may not provide as much value per dollar as tax increases. You can't plan a budget around voluntary donations amounting to 0.1% of your total intake for the…

Thanks for bearing with me. I think some of the examples you gave good and rational reasons why some people might defer contributing to a valid cause on an individual level. There are a class of problems that do require scale, and some cases were the individual is preoccupied with mitigating their personal harm instead of addressing the root cause of the problem.

I think there are some cases where this is certainly the case.

The topic at large is a bit of a sore spot for me because I think many people use aspirations to collective action as excuse not to take personal action. There are also tons of problems where immediate action can be taken on on the individual or local level, and instances where individual or local action is far more effective than top down solutions!

There is a class of people that would essentially see a starving child, want to help, but do nothing while waiting for 350 million people to (maybe) come to consensus on some federal solution. It is some sort of learned helplessness where people are scared to take personal action. I think the free rider concern also plays a part, but don't particularly respect it. It is like saying I'm going to let the child in front of my house starve until my neighbor agrees to feed the child in front of their house too. Sometimes people should do the good thing because it is good and lead by example, and especially so when the valid situations you raised do not apply.

Re: Much philanthropy is a routinized exchange between salaried bureaucrats

#237

Okay, I think I have some weird blind spot here. I have really hard time understanding the reasoning behind philanthropy being a societal good that should be subsidized by taxpayers. Let's take econ 101 and revealed preferences. It is obvious that if you give 100 bucks to a charity you get utility worth more than that 100 bucks. Otherwise you would not do that . And there is zero difference on the mechanics there if…

The moral and economic arguments are pretty simple. From the economic perspective, If someone gives $100 to charity, and a gets a $20 tax deduction, this is a net positive. Ostensibly, the point of government is to help people, and the point of charities are to help people. In reality, Half of that $20 tax would have gone to building bombs, so it is more like $10 vs $100. From the moral perspective, charitable donati…

FYI: 50% of tax doesn’t go to bombs, or defense. Like 20% does and most of that isn’t bombs :)

Re: Much philanthropy is a routinized exchange between salaried bureaucrats

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People love to say governments are inefficient, but I always find that an interesting claim. It invariably relies on comparing government to much smaller scale organizations (such as charity), which obviously isn't comparable. That is, I can be 100% efficient with my donation to charity by just...giving $20 to a homeless person. Oh look, 100% of my donation went to someone in need. A charity can be 90% efficient by c…

Your argument is rather confusing. You say they aren't comparable, then point out a plethora of comparisons. You then finish by demonstrating some of the reasons governments are inefficient. All of this after leading with seeming disagreement. I'm a little lost.

I can compare apples and oranges. "Well, oranges tend to be rounder, and more orange, and tarter, and...". Doesn't change the fact that it is THE cliche for bad comparisons that you shouldn't attempt.

Maybe I should clarify, especially if English isn't your first language, saying something "isn't comparable" doesn't mean you literally can't compare them, but that doing so is unhelpful and misleading.

Re: Much philanthropy is a routinized exchange between salaried bureaucrats

#239
post #55
post #3

I don't necessarily want it to go away entirely, but the tax breaks should be abolished. It's particularly offensive to see the state and local tax deduction (money that actually goes to help one's fellows in the ways they see fit, without being beholden to the whims of the "donor") capped while 503c "donations" remain an unlimited deduction.

The tax break is only around 20% of the donation. Even if the donated money is not spent as perfectly as you would like, there's 5 times as much of it.

The tax break for SALT works exactly the same way, no?

Re: Much philanthropy is a routinized exchange between salaried bureaucrats

#240
post #74
post #68

Don’t let all the shenanigans at the top stop you from doing good. It’s clear that the American system of tax preference for philanthropy is easy to abuse, but while it’s there you might as well use it to help people if you can afford to. If your company matches donations, take them up on that. That means for $1 pre-tax (~$0.60 out of your pocket) you can give $2.00 to an organization that could use the money. That’s…

And what organisations, pray tell, actually need the money and would be visible to a normal human being in a country that isn't shattered by war? Most of the large charities have disgustingly paid CEO's and I can't be the only one that gets a sour taste in their mouth when I give an amount of money to them and realise this CEO receives 100k-1m in compensation while actual human beings starve in the streets or freeze…

one local church in seattle is making a clear impact for the homeless. you can tell by where all the tents are set up
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