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Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

dynomight.net

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Re: Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps "ignoring" means refusing to entertain it even for the sake of argument. Bodily autonomy is probably a weak argument, because it assumes that the fetus isn't a living human being deserving of the same protections against slaughter that you and I enjoy. If it is, bodily autonomy doesn't justify murder. If it's not, then protecting it from abortion is absurd. In neither case though, is bodily autonomy a compell…

Disagree. You can turn up the personhood all the way and still, in a scenario where a child was dying and needed a kidney and their parent was the only available match, the parent could not be legally forced to donate it. Why? They own their body and can't be forced to put themselves through bodily harm to help someone else. You seem to be saying that "personhood" should be the deciding factor of abortion rights, but…

I’m not sure the kidney analogy holds. Kidney donation refusal seems like an act of omission; whereas the active steps to abort a fetus are acts of commission. These are too distinct in ethical discussions.

Bodily autonomy is usually clear in most instances, but it might be overridden by personhood, so it doesn’t help resolve the debate to everybody’s satisfaction.

Re: Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Liberals seem to be always willing to entertain the discussion of basically anything. It's sort of a core tenet of liberalism... Open discussion and debate. I'm not sure that is true anymore. Liberals have extremist wings (like Antifa) just like conservatives do. People making liberal arguments now spew the same venom that only conservative groups did 10 years ago. At least in my experience. I think part of the prob…

>Liberals have extremist wings (like Antifa) Antifa[1] generally aren't Liberals, except in the overly-broad definition where anyone who opposed fascism is antifa. American Antifa is based on the German Antifa, which is explicitly leftist and anticapitalist, and the majority of self-identified American Antifa are the same. GP is talking about political Liberalism[2], of which open discussion is a core tenet. US polit…

>GP is talking about political Liberalism[2], of which open discussion is a core tenet.

It's really not though. Here are some issues off the top of my head that many modern liberals, at least on the internet, have no desire to honestly discuss. By discuss I mean listen and consider and understand the other side's opinion in good faith:

  - Abortion
  - Effectiveness of gun control
  - Maybe Trump wasn't a Russian asset
  - Transexual rights v. women's rights
  - Drug Policy
  - Benefits of free market capitalism
Most don't even understand the actual counter arguments and just understand the counter arguments as other liberals explain it to them. It seems both sides are in their corners and just shouting past each other. This is the polarization every is talking about.

I think liberals see conservatives as a caricature of that conservatives actually are and vice versa. It reminds me of the same propaganda/caricatures that the US used during WWII to try to make the Japanese and German armies look foolish and weak.

Re: Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This applies to only the topic of discussion you are having with that person (ie, a singular event in time) therefore it's _one_ idea with inconsistency. I know this is a subtle distinction, but it was my actual point.

I don't understand what you mean, starting with "this." Can you explain? I'm saying the following is false in all discussions, that's all: > when people get defensive it's almost certainly based on something incongruous between their beliefs and actions

I have done tests the past few years where I analyzed what went wrong where some form of disagreement has occurred, either personally or professional. Either I was defensive or the other person was.

During the defensive act (usually an expression of anger or less often hurt) the single event turned out almost always to be because one of the people in the discussion held a belief that was found on something unsupportable/ unsubstantiated in the context of the discussion, and the opposing view brought this to light.

The defensive person (often times myself) backed their position (action) based on their beliefs, but was confronted with contradictory information. (ie, they could simply not "defend" their position in light of the other information.)

Keep in mind, the truth of a situation was often irrelevant as I found my self defensive even I only _thought_ I was being shown to be wrong (ie, my actions didn't support by beliefs at the time, but later proved otherwise), and I found this with other people as well.

Again, this is only my immediate surroundings and tests I have run. The reason I know the other side is that in nearly every instance I followed up with the other person to find out what happened, what went wrong for the very purpose of understanding what caused the defensive behavior.

Consider running a test...

Next time you run into a situation where something goes wrong, someone gets defensive (easiest to analyze yourself, because you have all the evidence available) compare what you/they said/did with what they actually believe about the event.

I've frequently worked out great personal issues with people doing this, but sometimes people get more upset and simply do not want to bring something up that is a contradiction for themselves.

A simple example of this idea is politics, when someone expresses a belief like "all life is sacred", and then they are asked about person's life they detest, when pressed on the matter, they will get defensive. Their actions (words they express) are incongruous with their beliefs are what caused their reaction.

Another example is unprofessional behavior, when someone shouts at another person in a meeting, and you point out their actions, they will often state "I wasn't shouting" immediately, or raise some other similar defense.

Challenge anyone with evidence that contradicts them on any belief they hold, and if they can't defend against your proofs, almost everyone gets defensive, as if you are attacking _them_. (some people need to value the belief highly, otherwise they won't even discuss it with you) I have yet to meet a person that I have not seen this behavior in under these circumstances. (I bring up contradictory info a lot as part of my work and personal life) Maybe psychopaths or sociopaths?

Re: Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Liberals have extremist wings (like Antifa) Antifa[1] generally aren't Liberals, except in the overly-broad definition where anyone who opposed fascism is antifa. American Antifa is based on the German Antifa, which is explicitly leftist and anticapitalist, and the majority of self-identified American Antifa are the same. GP is talking about political Liberalism[2], of which open discussion is a core tenet. US polit…

>GP is talking about political Liberalism[2], of which open discussion is a core tenet. It's really not though. Here are some issues off the top of my head that many modern liberals, at least on the internet, have no desire to honestly discuss. By discuss I mean listen and consider and understand the other side's opinion in good faith: - Abortion - Effectiveness of gun control - Maybe Trump wasn't a Russian asset - T…

>By discuss I mean listen and consider and understand the other side's opinion in good faith

Based on everything I've seen on the internet, that's a definition that sets the bar so high it's almost comical. Especially when it comes to "culture war" topics like you've listed. Very, very few individuals are willing to actually try to understand what their opponents believe, on either side of the issue, and the exceptions are truly exceptional.

That being said, the Liberal concept of "open discussion" doesn't require anyone to actually understand their opponents'' positions. In fact, it implicitly discourages it. That's because the purpose of open debate, according to Liberal ideal, is to allow "everyone's voice to be heard" in the "marketplace of ideas" so that "the best ideas will naturally float to the top". If one really believes that their idea is the best, they have a vested internet in making sure it is heard loudly and frequently in that market. You're correct that this has led to polarization, because that is precisely a failure mode of these Liberal ideals.

A couple of side notes:

- "Liberal" isn't a synonym for "Democrat", nor is it a strict antonym of "conservative". A lot of the Republican platform is and has been Liberalism/neoliberalism (though this has lessened in the past few decades, especially in the post-Trump era). Indeed, lots of (pre-Trump) Republicans are Liberals/neoliberals, though many would be offended to be called that due to the aforementioned American muddying of the term. (Don't ask me to define the distinction between classical- and neo- liberalism, though, it never had a fully accepted distinction)

- "Transexual" hasn't been the preferred term for over a decade. That and the fact that you listed it in opposition to "women's rights" makes me think that you aren't actually coming to these discussions to "understand the other side's opinion in good faith", on that idea or others, and that might be affecting your perception of what these "liberals on the internet" are willing to do.

Re: Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the extremism from the abortion-supporting side Can you post some examples? I know the anti-choice crowd has a history of assassination, arson, bombings, death threats, kidnappings , harassment/stalking, and vandalism... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence Note that Wikipedia doesn't seem to have a "pro-choice violence" page and searching around I couldn't find much beyond some vandalism.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/10/abortion-ars... https://www.axios.com/2022/05/18/supreme-court-abortion-roe-...

Yeah I found that first article right away: It's really all that exists. The second article is just speculation (nothing actually happened).

There's nothing violent coming from the Left (vandalism isn't violence). There may be violence coming (per the second article) but as yet, the Right (conservatives) still have a monopoly on it. I stand by what I said.

In short, based on the evidence: Anyone claiming "violence from the Left" is just making things up.

Re: Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>GP is talking about political Liberalism[2], of which open discussion is a core tenet. It's really not though. Here are some issues off the top of my head that many modern liberals, at least on the internet, have no desire to honestly discuss. By discuss I mean listen and consider and understand the other side's opinion in good faith: - Abortion - Effectiveness of gun control - Maybe Trump wasn't a Russian asset - T…

>By discuss I mean listen and consider and understand the other side's opinion in good faith Based on everything I've seen on the internet, that's a definition that sets the bar so high it's almost comical. Especially when it comes to "culture war" topics like you've listed. Very, very few individuals are willing to actually try to understand what their opponents believe, on either side of the issue, and the exceptio…

>(Don't ask me to define the distinction between classical- and neo- liberalism, though, it never had a fully accepted distinction)

Neoliberalism is an economic policy favored by both parties, it's not a socialistic policy. It leans towards unfettered capitalism. This philosophy is why we have things like outsourcing, globalization and NAFTA, things that significantly disadvantage the American worker. I didn't understand it for a while myself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

>"Liberal" isn't a synonym for "Democrat", nor is it a strict antonym of "conservative".

Yes, as I understand it, liberalism is change, conservatism is status quo. Personally I'm liberal on some policies and conservative on others. To me conservative could simply mean, "I haven't heard a good plan yet, I'll wait until I hear one." On the topics I'm conservative on, I could be persuaded to change if a plan was actually presented, rather than a vague concept (like universal healthcare, UBI, student loan debt forgiveness, etc). The only candidate in recent memory who ever discussed and laid out a plan was Bernie, and I thought it was good, well thought one one that I could support. The only issue is it would have to be a gradual implementation as to not upturn the economy. Unfortunately our current implementation of quasi-universal healthcare seems to be benefit the medical and insurance industry far more than the citizenry, though there are good things about it for the citizenry as well.

>"Transexual" hasn't been the preferred term for over a decade. That and the fact that you listed it in opposition to "women's rights" makes me think that you aren't actually coming to these discussions to "understand the other side's opinion in good faith"

I don't keep up on the latest trends of vernacular, they change like the tides. I'm also older, so people tend to stick with the terms they learn. (i.e. Blacks, vs African Americans, vs Colored People (bad) vs People of Color (good?!), and other labels that go back even further). Out of curiosity, what is the current preferred nomenclature for what used to be "transexual?" Also, who decides? Isn't that what the T in LGBTQ stands for? You should let them know they need change their acronym.

FWIW, just because your circle of people want to call potato chips "crisps," doesn't mean you should expect everyone to immediately switch, or even know you've decided to describe something differently. You certainly shouldn't assume they aren't coming in good faith because they don't keep up with your group's trends, that seems fairly egocentric. An example of this would be, "You called Pluto a planet, therefore you aren't arguing in good faith about science." Seems a strange conclusion when put in a different perspective. Instead of discussing the topic, you shut down the conversation because I used a term that was common only 10 years ago. That somewhat proved my original point, though I don't believe that was your intention.

Anyway, I seemed to have gotten side tracked in the long and rambling post. I think my original point was liberals have extremists too, and liberals aren't as open to discussion as they used to be and are quick to find reason to shut down discussion (like not using the current, possibly obscure nomenclature). Extremism isn't a political condition, it's a human condition and should be shunned regardless of political goal.

Re: Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

#377
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all: What a terribly-made PDF... It's so compressed I can't even read the text at the top. Secondly, it's just from an awful source: The Family Research Council (FRC) is designated as a hate group (for good reason!) by the Southern Poverty Law Center: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou... Even after all that it has yet another problem : It uses loaded terms like, "unborn children" t…

I wasn't aware that unborn children was a loaded term... It seems to me that they may be using that term to refer to "the entire gamut of zygote, embryo, fetus, etc.". I know, it's crazy we wrap up ideas like this into a pithy little phrase. It's almost as if the English language has short phrases that are useful to discuss things at a broader level. Crazy right? > Is it really that impossible for the anti-choice mov…

I read those two articles: The first one is along the lines of, "I'm here! I exist!" and doesn't make any arguments at all. The second one is much more interesting! However, it isn't making any case at all one way or the other.

Though I will say this: The Atlantic article does a pretty good job summing up the stance of the pro-life scientists:

> “There had been, a long time ago, this mantra from our friends on the other side of this issue that, while a little one is developing in its mother’s womb, it’s not a baby,” she says. “It’s really hard to make that argument when you see and hear a heartbeat and watch little hands moving around.”

If the entire basis of their argument is, "this is a baby!" then it's not going to win over very many pro-choice folks because they know it's a baby. It's a developing human life. Absolutely! But then again: So what? Why is that special? It certainly hasn't been born yet. It can't even feel pain until about 29-30 weeks.

Sooner or later we'll have completely artificial wombs and when that day comes the folks (or AIs) operating them will probably regularly discard fetuses that aren't growing how they'd like. They'll also probably have machines that can produce (or manufacture!) eggs and sperm with whatever genetics are desired. At that point a fertilized egg will be viable the moment it's fertilized. Does that mean we have to give it a social security number and treat it like it's complete human? Absolutely not!

Being anti-choice doesn't have a basis in science or reason: It's a moral position. That's what's wrong with debate from that side: They pretend it's not and it comes off as super disingenuous. You can make a well-reasoned, logical argument from that premise of, "here's why we think it's morally wrong" but that's never where it goes. It's always about heartbeats or sucking of thumbs or whatever a developing human can do at various stages.

Re: Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter argument to that is: If pro lifers are assuming that a fetus is indeed a living human being, then it follows that the child is completely innocent and its survival is completely dependent on the mother. A soldier signing up for the army knows very well what he is up against..

https://kjzz.org/content/1777360/arizona-gov-doug-ducey-says... And yet here is Governor Ducy arguing for an arguably mentally incompetent man to be put to death for the murder of an innocent child. While, yes, the crime is egregious, and he should never be set free from his cell... Do you think that it is, indeed "pro-life" to argue, as quite a few do, to argue for the death penalty as a form of punishment (I won't…

I'm not sure how that position can be reconciled with "pro-life". It seems like a direct conflict to me. So, I'm agreeing with you about Ducy.

Re: Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what you mean, starting with "this." Can you explain? I'm saying the following is false in all discussions, that's all: > when people get defensive it's almost certainly based on something incongruous between their beliefs and actions

I have done tests the past few years where I analyzed what went wrong where some form of disagreement has occurred, either personally or professional. Either I was defensive or the other person was. During the defensive act (usually an expression of anger or less often hurt) the single event turned out almost always to be because one of the people in the discussion held a belief that was found on something unsupporta…

> I have done tests the past few years where I analyzed what went wrong where some form of disagreement has occurred, either personally or professional. Either I was defensive or the other person was.

Whatever dude :) That's just anecdotal. My counterexamples prove you wrong. What you said was false :P

Re: Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/10/abortion-ars... https://www.axios.com/2022/05/18/supreme-court-abortion-roe-...

Yeah I found that first article right away: It's really all that exists. The second article is just speculation (nothing actually happened). There's nothing violent coming from the Left (vandalism isn't violence). There may be violence coming (per the second article) but as yet, the Right (conservatives) still have a monopoly on it. I stand by what I said. In short, based on the evidence: Anyone claiming "violence fr…

> vandalism isn't violence

That is not true in English.

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