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The Xinjiang Police Files

xinjiangpolicefiles.org

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Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#71

Post by Paradigma11 »

thriftwy wrote: post #48
dr_faustus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also find that interesting in contrast to the constant outrage about the situation of Palestinians in Israel which certainly has many highly problematic aspects but to me still seems to be a far cry from the situation of Muslims in China or the treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia. It seems to be quite hypocritical by the governments of Muslim countries.

Quoted post unavailable.

You bomb, torture and kill them till you get a dictatorial regime that is subservient to you?

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#72

Post by ookdatnog »

dr_faustus wrote: post #40
shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

I also find that interesting in contrast to the constant outrage about the situation of Palestinians in Israel which certainly has many highly problematic aspects but to me still seems to be a far cry from the situation of Muslims in China or the treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia. It seems to be quite hypocritical by the governments of Muslim countries.

I think that's adequately explained by the fact that, unlike China, Israel is considered an ally in the west. That means we are in some way more responsible for the actions of Israel than the actions of China, as continued support implies agreement with those actions, to some extent.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#73

Post by oreally »

philliphaydon wrote: post #63
oreally wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a quora: https://www.quora.com/How-credible-are-Adrian-Zenz-one-of-th... and a quote: " Zenz’ academic qualifications, much touted, don’t stand up to much scrutiny. His h-index is 12, about a quarter of the 40 that a ‘good’ academic should have, especially a mid-career 47-year old. His roles are all with anti-China think tanks, not academic positions. He’s in a bubble of anti-Communism and anti-China funding a…

At the end of the day, if all the claims about Xinjiang are false and everything is really peachy and rosey as the CCP claims it to be, then they should allow 100% absolute freedom of the press to go in and check it out. That will however never happen because it's clearly obvious there is something to hide. So far all the CCP has done is allow some journalists to go to specific areas, are followed and controlled and…

Not saying everything's false btw.

My guess is China/CCP doesn't have much trust in western news outlets, hence no freedom of press.

Also, you're making a lot of claims on the second guy too.

> There's no need to come here and see anything cos he's lying

China did invite muslim countries and some other western ones to xinjiang. Some western countries declined to go claiming taint.

If you expand the horizon beyond just a matter of hiding information = guilt, you'll see the US has just as much motivation and track record to blow this issue out of proportion on false grounds too, and the power to get away with it (eg. iraq). Based on that they would/should garner far less trust.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#74

Post by emptysongglass »

4ggr0 wrote: post #28

I hope that this is a genuine leak showing what's going on there. Just don't like the organisation behind this leak, at all, and don't really trust them. But as long as this leak is objective I can ignore this aspect. Really sickening to see what's going on in Xinjiang. EDIT: I said it's sickening to see what's going on and i strongly oppose what China is doing in Xinjang, am I really getting downvotes just because I…

From the Hacker News Guidelines: "Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading."

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#75

Post by usrusr »

4ggr0 wrote: post #28

I hope that this is a genuine leak showing what's going on there. Just don't like the organisation behind this leak, at all, and don't really trust them. But as long as this leak is objective I can ignore this aspect. Really sickening to see what's going on in Xinjiang. EDIT: I said it's sickening to see what's going on and i strongly oppose what China is doing in Xinjang, am I really getting downvotes just because I…

The larger picture "leak formation", by which I mean the group of organisations that has formed around the investigations and/or selected for early access by those more directly involved, is much bigger than just that "Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation". Plenty of regular news organisations with no excessive bias.

For all I know "Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation" might be a perfectly well-meaning org without any questionable agenda at all (it's the first time I hear about it), but it certainly looks like it could just as well be quite the opposite. Clearly not the most favorable way for first contact with this story.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#76

Post by thriftwy »

Paradigma11 wrote: post #71
thriftwy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You bomb, torture and kill them till you get a dictatorial regime that is subservient to you?

You win a war to get a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works and turn a warzone into a reasonably peaceful region.

That seems to be a very high bar if we compare it with USA/NATO/EU/Chinese endeavours in any of Muslim regions.

The grandparent made it sound like the devastation were ongoing, which it's not. Stopping the violence is a good thing. If you don't acknowledge it, you can't even tell failure from success and all of your (Xinjiang and otherwise) efforts would be misguided.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#77

Post by arvigeus »

throwaway4good wrote: post #39
coffeeblack wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without more context, that is a meaningless comment. You can’t just drop a name and claim “lier”.

https://thegrayzone.com/tag/adrian-zenz/

Posting a link to a random shady site with lots of propaganda-like articles does not constitute as an argument.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#78

Post by philliphaydon »

oreally wrote: post #73
philliphaydon wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day, if all the claims about Xinjiang are false and everything is really peachy and rosey as the CCP claims it to be, then they should allow 100% absolute freedom of the press to go in and check it out. That will however never happen because it's clearly obvious there is something to hide. So far all the CCP has done is allow some journalists to go to specific areas, are followed and controlled and…

Not saying everything's false btw. My guess is China/CCP doesn't have much trust in western news outlets, hence no freedom of press. Also, you're making a lot of claims on the second guy too. > There's no need to come here and see anything cos he's lying China did invite muslim countries and some other western ones to xinjiang. Some western countries declined to go claiming taint. If you expand the horizon beyond jus…

I don't have much care for the US as I live in Asia (Currently Taiwan) and am from New Zealand. So I'm in no way trying to justify what the US has done or doing and they can be just as guilty.

However the two situations are vastly different. The US has a history of reporting on issues that happen on their own turf. Sometimes with positive outcomes, sometimes without any outcome at all.

With China, the CCP controls the narrative 100% of the time. When any information is leaked it's stamped out and censored quickly.

For example they claim to have 100% resolved poverty. Part of what they did was hand out money to rural area's to help people. When people claimed they never recieved money, or that they were forced to sign paperwork stating they recieved the money when they hadn't, it was quickly censored and scrubbed from social media in China. So can we trust the CCP when they say they got rid of poverty?

When the BBC went to Xinjiang.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55666153

> Over a period of less than 72 hours in Xinjiang we were followed constantly and, on five separate occasions, approached by people who attempted to stop us from filming in public, sometimes violently.

> But the China Daily chooses not to mention that some of our footage was forcibly deleted and we were made to accompany the same police officer to another location so she could review the remaining pictures.

> It was also attended by two propaganda officials who were assigned to accompany us for the rest of our time in Kuqa - adding one more car to the long line that followed us wherever we went.

> Far from being fake news, our evidence, along with the post-publication propaganda designed to undermine it, is proof of a co-ordinated effort to control the narrative, extending from the shadowy minders in unmarked cars, all the way up to the national government.

So it doesn't matter if China invites anyone in, the CCP will tell us what they want us to hear. Not what's actually going on.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#79

Post by thaumasiotes »

dr_faustus wrote: post #40
shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

I also find that interesting in contrast to the constant outrage about the situation of Palestinians in Israel which certainly has many highly problematic aspects but to me still seems to be a far cry from the situation of Muslims in China or the treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia. It seems to be quite hypocritical by the governments of Muslim countries.

> the situation of Muslims in China

Here's your problem; trying to talk about "the situation of Muslims in China" is incoherent. Islam has been an accepted (though small) part of Chinese culture for many centuries, and it still is. The Uyghurs are highly atypical Muslims in China who don't speak Chinese and don't participate in Chinese culture, instead preferring their own rival culture. That (and rebelliousness) is why they're oppressed.

Uyghurs have problems in China. Muslims don't, except to the extent that negative views of the Uyghurs start bleeding over into negative views of Muslims generally (which is indeed happening).

I've been confused for years about why the Western press seems so determined to demonstrate that it has no idea what it's talking about by representing oppression of Uyghurs as "oppressing people because of their religion". The case just can't be made. It would be trivial to call it "oppressing people because of their race"; that case is easy to make. But I guess the Western audience wouldn't see race-based oppression as being all that villainous?

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#80

Post by refurb »

shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

I think the reason is pretty clear - Western nations can be pressured and people can voice their opinion and protest their own government's actions.

Only a little over 30 years ago China rolled out its military and crushed its own citizens beneath tank treads, then denied the whole thing happened.

Public condemnation against China will do nothing, so Islamic countries don't even try. Plus I would throw in a bit of geopolitcal posturing in that 1) going against China might look a little too much aligning with the US and 2) not pissing off China keeps some sort of partnership with China and it's deep pockets open in the future.

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