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How to hire an idiot

nukemanbill.blogspot.com

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Re: How to hire an idiot

#61

Post by tptacek »

jarek wrote: post #60
tptacek wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bad reference. Sorry. I know that's not fun to hear, but it's true. Go out of your way to find people who will give you detailed, positive references. Savvy employers will go out of their way, for instance by hitting up their network, to get "out of band" references for an employee. Those references are the ones that count the most. But when you give me a reference, and I call them, and all they'll say is "H…

I don't know if a generic HR/manager reference would tell even the salary. But now I'm genuinely curious: 1. how do you make sure references presented aren't extremely cherry-picked - does it just come out as obvious in the conversation? 2. what about more junior employees, who may not have much of a network for an employer to hit up?

Do not use HR people as references!

You're better off cherry-picking your references than you are trying to be "honest" about them and not knowing for sure what your reference is going to say about you. As long as you actually worked with the person who's giving your reference, you're fine.

Re: How to hire an idiot

#62

Post by tptacek »

m0nastic wrote: post #55
thwarted wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interests and Hobbies seem to be boilerplate resume sections too, but no one with any significant experience should include them.

The "art" to resumes (as I'm now in the process of learning, after not looking at mine for ten years), is to figure out how to best portray yourself to the exact person(s) you're submitting it to. That should inform what sections are appropriate. Sometimes having interests and hobbies is beneficial. I've seen numerous folks at startups talk about how they like seeing things like interests and hobbies, as they feel it…

I like Eagle Scout on the resume. I'd put it there. (I'm not one).

Re: How to hire an idiot

#63

Post by [deleted] »

m0nastic wrote: post #55
thwarted wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interests and Hobbies seem to be boilerplate resume sections too, but no one with any significant experience should include them.

The "art" to resumes (as I'm now in the process of learning, after not looking at mine for ten years), is to figure out how to best portray yourself to the exact person(s) you're submitting it to. That should inform what sections are appropriate. Sometimes having interests and hobbies is beneficial. I've seen numerous folks at startups talk about how they like seeing things like interests and hobbies, as they feel it…

[deleted]

Re: How to hire an idiot

#64

Post by tokenadult »

There is an art to checking references. Even if a company has a policy of giving bare minimum information, find out a TELEPHONE NUMBER of someone in that company who knows your candidate and start a conversation. I was given a specific script of questions to ask back in the 1990s when I was a community volunteer for my local public school district, doing reference checks on superintendent candidates. A consultant advised the school district (and through the district, me) on how to do this. If you talk to someone directly by voice, and have a good list of specific questions to ask about the candidate, you will be AMAZED at what people say, policy or no policy. Company policies don't keep people from sharing stories with curious listeners. The key is to learn what questions are legal to ask and reveal the most interesting stories about the person you are thinking of hiring. There are consultants who can advise you about checking references, and, as several comments here say, they are a lot less expensive than making a wrong hiring decision, and once you've learned the questions, you know what to ask.

I've just asked my consultant Google, and he suggests several sets of useful questions to ask when checking references:

http://hiring.monster.com/hr/hr-best-practices/recruiting-hi...

http://www.drgnyc.com/list_serve/Jan24_2005.htm

http://www.acadweb.wwu.edu/hr/Employment/InfoForHiringOffici...

http://www.best-job-interview.com/reference-check-questions....

http://www.k-state.edu/hr/employment/referencecheck.htm

http://pbsbo.ucsc.edu/personnel_payroll/staff/recruit/ref_ch...

http://www.bridgestar.org/Library/HiringToolkit/ReferenceChe...

http://jobsearch.about.com/od/referencesrecommendations/a/re...

Re: How to hire an idiot

#65

Post by m0nastic »

tptacek wrote: post #62
m0nastic wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "art" to resumes (as I'm now in the process of learning, after not looking at mine for ten years), is to figure out how to best portray yourself to the exact person(s) you're submitting it to. That should inform what sections are appropriate. Sometimes having interests and hobbies is beneficial. I've seen numerous folks at startups talk about how they like seeing things like interests and hobbies, as they feel it…

I like Eagle Scout on the resume. I'd put it there. (I'm not one).

See, that's good to know (and I suppose ironic in the O'henry sense of the word).

The thing I've started to figure out is that there is almost no consensus on what people want to see on a resume (short of what they don't want to see).

Re: How to hire an idiot

#66

Post by m0nastic »

jarek wrote: post #53
lotharbot wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further, "check references" needs to be deeper than just asking if the guy actually worked there. Ask about his role and responsibilities. Ask how he helped the company's bottom line. Ask real questions.

The problem is a lot of places will not make any further comment beyond confirming the employee worked there and perhaps the circumstances of their departure (resignation/laid off/fired). This is often for legal reasons.

I've posted about this before, but I wanted to again bring it up as a note of caution for people who might be looking for work.

My present employer (who I've finally decided to try and make my former) has a policy forbidding any employee from serving as a reference to any former employee. They are literally not allowed to comment in any way, but are told to forward all inquiries to a phone number which will verify employment (a number that no one actually seems to know).

Ostensibly, this is to protect the corporation from potential lawsuits; but it has a chilling effect on employees who are looking to leave.

So I'd warn anyone to be careful about working at a place like this, as it can make leaving much more difficult. A policy like this isn't something you'd generally think to ask about while interviewing, so I don't know how you'd find out about it ahead of time, but it's probably worth asking about.

I've had companies ask me if I could violate the policy and provide them references anyway, which I'm not a big fan of. As anti-employee as I consider the policy, I think it's important to follow the stuff you've agreed to (and I'm not sure what it says about a company who is that willing to have you violate the policies at your existing company).

Re: How to hire an idiot

#67

Post by wcchandler »

jaredsohn wrote: post #3

Comments from a previous time this was posted (three years ago): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=263599 "How do you find a good salesperson?": http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=264282

Thank you. After the 4th paragraph I was hit by deja vu. Had to scroll to the top to check if it was stolen.

Re: How to hire an idiot

#68

Post by earl »

rdl wrote: post #20
iand wrote: post #4

Number one rule of hiring: take up references

I'm curious how people feel about (criminal, credit) background checks. Our lawyers suggested that both those and drug tests are sometimes done, but might not be appropriate in silicon valley. We're pretty anti drug-tests, but especially for an infosec company or someone with access to sensitive customer data, running at least a criminal check and possibly credit check makes sense. I wouldn't say having previous conv…

I've turned down job offers over required background checks, for a variety of reasons. I could see how they would be appropriate if someone were involved in handling money or deals or some such, but for a plain dev, it's silly.

I'd consider just a plain criminal background check, but for the rest of it, my credit is none of anybody's damn business. The demand to call all my previous employers and verify salaries is similarly horseshit -- my previous salaries don't matter a damn, all that matters is our agreement on what an employer is going to pay me. The weird thing is companies get indignant if you turn them down for this reason, and pissy when you characterize the demand for such a check as a lack of trust. Particularly since my previous 3 bosses are references. While I suppose someone could fake references, it's hard to do with linkedin, especially since someone doing a reference call to an arbitrary phone number could just ask for a verification email from corporate email.

Re: How to hire an idiot

#70

Post by DavidAdams »

Bartlet wrote: post #33
tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you notice that on a resume? High school drop-outs don't write "high school drop-out" on their resume. In fact, many people, including many of the best people, don't put "education" on their resume at all.

I think an "education" section is a boilerplate resume item. If it wasn't there, I'd at least ask for details.

I have a bachelor's degree, and I haven't included an education section on my resume for at least a decade. (I'm 40 years old) I've been at VP or C-level for a long time. That's largely because my degree is largely irrelevant to my career path, or at least I believe that putting it there wouldn't really advance the story I'm trying to put forward succinctly on a CV. I have an English degree, which has actually been incalculably key to my career as a software company founder and executive, since I studied writing and basically write for a living. But I founded my first company when I was still in college, and it's pretty much what happened from there that's part of my story. As it happens, I went ahead and finished my degree, but it wouldn't have mattered one whit if I hadn't.
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