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Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

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111–120 of 306 posts

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Base power is nice, but I think we need to be more creative in setting up infrastructure that can work with varying price.

So in the winter everyone just freezes to death since they can't afford heat? That's a solution?

You'd obviously have to limit the price fluctuations for consumer contracts. But currently I'm just starting the dishwasher or washing machine when I fill them, but I don't care when they're done as long as it's within ~12 hours. In many places I can get cheaper electricity at night and save a bit by running them then. But with renewables surplus might happen at any time of day, not just at night. A smart meter combined with marginally smart devices would allow us to run time-insensitive things when it's cheap, instead of when it's convenient.

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#112
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pumped storage combined with solar and wind isnt orders of magnitude more than nuclear power. It's still cheaper. Fengning is less than half the cost of a nuclear plant and delivers twice as much power. It's a very effective battery. Pumped (or indeed, any kind of) storage just isnt very economic when youve got oodles of cheap, dispatchable gas. Nuclear power almost always exists to help prop up military nuclear requ…

Where do you get the water for pumped storage and where do you put it? I have a hill that goes up about 300 feet on my farm. I've done the math on the volume of a reservoir for a pumped storage system and it is pretty shocking. The US has domestic production of natural gas, the EU has some domestic production and imports from Russia. Japan imports a lot of LNG. There are many countries that don't use natural gas but…

There are many reasons not to do it. A shortage of bodies of water above other bodies of water isnt one of them.

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#113
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They fought tooth and nail for the ban of genertical modified food, but now are in favor of a mandatory mRNA vaccination even for young people. This is a consistent position. mRNA vaccination is not genetic modification. On the other hand, adenoviral-vector vaccines are genetically modified organisms.

Eating genetically modified food isn't genetic modification, either.

I don't think any credible person or German party ever claimed that. It's the food you're eating that's modified, not that you get genetically modified from eating it

(Of course gmo is a thousand times better than previous practices with random mutation)

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can name some peaker plants but I struggle to name storage facilities other than a handful of oddities like https://damfailures.org/case-study/taum-sauk-dam-missouri-20...

For facilities with more than 1GW capacity Wikipedia has a list [1] (though note that that's merely the turbine's capacity, the total amount stored is the GWh figure that's missing for half of the entries). There's also a list specifically with installations that aren't pumped hydro, but none of those would make the list above because of their limited capacity [2]. Pumped hydro dominates the storage game so far, both…

Pumped hydro is extremely dependent on geography. Yes, the extant plants have favorable cost-per-capacity, but that number will only get worse as less favorable sites are used for it.

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is one profitable use of excess energy that can be turned on demand in milliseconds, but, for some reason, it is very unpopular here on HN.

If there is "excess" energy given away for free, mining cryptos, by definition, would not be profitable. Instead, solar and wind generators can simply decrease production (in milliseconds) when not needed.

Plenty of crypto mining places using old hydroelectric dams around the world. It also means the maintenance of said hydroelectric dams are paid for. Even oil companies are looking at ways to harness the energy from burning gases on oil rigs for crypto mining. In a way, crypto is turning the world greener by not wasting energy.

https://bitcoin.ca/canada-just-got-a-huge-new-bitcoin-mining...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-hydro-put...

https://biv.com/article/2021/07/former-canfor-sawmill-site-n...

https://www.sentiman.io/hydroelectric-dam-new-york-crypto-mi...

https://screenrant.com/hydro-plant-green-crypto-mining-costa...

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#116
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, let's pretend thousands of people dying prematurely because of pollution isn't happening as well. Perfect is the enemy of good and looking for a "perfect" solution (zero carbon, zero risk) is just causing suffering and driving us to early extinction.

The alternative isn't fossil fuels. It's renewables. Compare against reality instead of your made up competition.

You will be right one day, and I'll cheer with you. But that day isn't coming terribly soon - the enormous energy storage needed to have the necessary degree of reliability out of intermittent sources, at the level of countries, is far beyond our current practical means.

What do we do in the meantime?

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#117

Fision power is no long term solution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kahih8RT1k

Cookiewalled video is on the channel Sabine Hossenfelder (German theoretical phycisist), titled "Is Nuclear Power Green?" The conclusion chapter transcription:

> What speaks in favor of nuclear is that it's climate-friendly, has a small landuse and creates power on demand. What speaks against it is that it's expensive and ultimately not renewable. The disadvantages could be alleviated with new technologies, but it's unclear whether that will work and even if it works, it almost certainly won't have a significant impact on climate change in the next twenty years.

> It also speaks against nuclear power that people are afraid of it. Even if these fears are not rational, that doesn't mean they don't exist. If someone isn't comfortable near a nuclear power plant, that affects the quality of life and that can't just be dismissed.

> There are two points I didn't discuss which you may have expected me to mention: one is nuclear proliferation and the risk posed by nuclear power plants during war times. This is certainly an important factor, but it's more political than scientific and that would be an entirely different discussion. The other point I didn't mention is nuclear waste. That's because I think it's a red herring which some activist groups are using in the attempt to scare people. For what I'm concerned, burying the stuff in a safe place solves the problem just fine. It's right that there aren't any final disposal sites at the moment, but Finland is expecting to open one next year and several other countries will follow.

> And, no, provided adequate safety standards, I wouldn't have a problem with the nuclear waste deposit in my vicinity.

> So, what did I learn from this? I learned that nuclear power has become economically even unappealing than it already was 20 years ago, and it's not clear this will ever change. Personally, I would say that this development can be left to the market. I'm not in favor of regulation that makes it even more regulation for us to reduce carbon emissions. To me, this just seems insane. In all fairness, it looks like nuclear won't help much, but then again, every little bit helps. Having said that, I think part of the reason the topic is so controversial is that, what you think is the best strategy depends on local conditions. There is no globally right decision. If your country has abundant solar and wind power, it might not make much sense in nuclear. Though you might want to keep in mind that climate change can affect wind and precipitation patterns in the long run. If your country is at a high risk of earthquakes, then maybe nuclear power just poses too high a risk. If on the other hand, renewables are unreliable in your region of the world, and you don't have a lot of space, and basically never see earthquakes, nuclear power might make a lot of sense.

> In the end, I'm afraid my answer to the question "is nuclear power green?" is: it's complicated.

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I wonder if HN needs a "your content is in another castle: link-only comments aren't thoughtful or substantive" guideline, a la stackoverflow (combining the principles from here https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/225370/your-answer-... and here https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in the winter everyone just freezes to death since they can't afford heat? That's a solution?

You'd obviously have to limit the price fluctuations for consumer contracts. But currently I'm just starting the dishwasher or washing machine when I fill them, but I don't care when they're done as long as it's within ~12 hours. In many places I can get cheaper electricity at night and save a bit by running them then. But with renewables surplus might happen at any time of day, not just at night. A smart meter combi…

There are electric vehicle chargers that know the price of electricity and time recharging your car to the best time of day.

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You made a false quote including "These people should be ignored. They are not serious people." as if I wrote it.

Thanks for pointing out his typo. He is correct, though. These people should be ignored and they are not serious people. “Humanity should change its baseline behavior“ is a sign of someone who is more interested in decrying the status quo than they are in fixing anything. You cannot fundamentally change humanity. Next proposal, please.

> “Humanity should change its baseline behavior“ is a sign of someone who is more interested in decrying the status quo than they are in fixing anything.

The last 20 years in improving building and vehicle energy efficiency never happened?

> You cannot fundamentally change humanity

Also the last 10.000 years never happened.

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#120
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple. People quote low prices for renewables today that we might be scoffing at in 50 years just like we scoff at the early claim that "nuclear power is too cheap to meter" Specifically, you can't compare a nuclear reactor that delivers predictable power to solar and wind systems that deliver power when they want to deliver power. Germany has already had episodes where the spot price for electricity w…

> yet to make the electric grid work they have to burn natural gas when renewables aren't available. Also, keep in mind most renewables are biomass ( aka burning trees for energy ).

Europe allows biomass to count as renewable, but they're going to phase it out. The US didn't make as bad of a mistake.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/17/climate/eu-burning-wood-e...

https://archive.ph/Xm4fb

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