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Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

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81–90 of 306 posts

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#81
post #60
post #10

If Germany's Green Party takes the same line, I think it will be a huge blow to Russia. Also, it's about time.

> I think it will be a huge blow to Russia. Nuclear or not, they'd still need to have electrified heating and industrial processes dependent on Russian gas.

The amount of natural gas consumed by the industry is already very low.

Germany needs to stop exporting electricity.

Most of export electricity comes from gas turbine topping plant which work during high EU electricity price times.

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to have a rational discussion about nuclear power with all the pro-nuclear shilling and the anti-nuclear FUD. However the following concerns are standing: - Nuclear is becoming more expensive while solar and wind are becoming much cheaper. Nuclear and renewables compete for investments so people disagree on what to invest to. - Nuclear proliferation is an unsolved problem and the risk is growing due to…

> Many argue that society should address overproduction and overconsumption of goods, and therefore energy, rather than increasing energy production. These people should be ignored. They are not serious people. And, against these concerns, there are only two renewable sources that provide constant power and both are limited by geography: hydro and tidal. I'm not aware of any high output tidal in the first place, and…

You made a false quote including "These people should be ignored. They are not serious people." as if I wrote it.

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#83
This might have something to do with Finland being energy reliant on Russia. Fact is Europe is reliant on Russia for energy, and much of the world for many base products. You can't sanction Russia, without causing pain to yourself. So most of the world didn't try, but with with the current peak levels of Anti Russia sentiments in the West, even the far left is forced into making pragmatic decisions.

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#84
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yet to make the electric grid work they have to burn natural gas when renewables aren't available. Also, keep in mind most renewables are biomass ( aka burning trees for energy ).

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy biomass is 5% of "clean energy" which includes a 28% share of nuclear. Hydro is 43% and clearly dominates.

Interesting. I thought "clean energy" generally didn't include nuclear. Also, is hydro really "clean energy"? In the US at least, biomass is the largest source of "clean energy". I'm betting it's even more for germany as they don't have the rivers we do to generate hydro power.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple. People quote low prices for renewables today that we might be scoffing at in 50 years just like we scoff at the early claim that "nuclear power is too cheap to meter" Specifically, you can't compare a nuclear reactor that delivers predictable power to solar and wind systems that deliver power when they want to deliver power. Germany has already had episodes where the spot price for electricity w…

There is one profitable use of excess energy that can be turned on demand in milliseconds, but, for some reason, it is very unpopular here on HN.

If there is "excess" energy given away for free, mining cryptos, by definition, would not be profitable.

Instead, solar and wind generators can simply decrease production (in milliseconds) when not needed.

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#86

This is great, and hopefully it will stop the premature shutdown of existing nuclear reactors. But it's pretty tiny climate news overall. Nuclear reactors are aging out and nobody in Western Europe or the US seems to know how to build in a cost competitive way anymore. Deploying 5GW of solar and storage, or 3-4GW of wind, is far easier, faster, and cheaper than trying to build a new reactor, which won't come on line…

It's not that simple. People quote low prices for renewables today that we might be scoffing at in 50 years just like we scoff at the early claim that "nuclear power is too cheap to meter" Specifically, you can't compare a nuclear reactor that delivers predictable power to solar and wind systems that deliver power when they want to deliver power. Germany has already had episodes where the spot price for electricity w…

> People quote low prices for renewables today that we might be scoffing at in 50 years just like we scoff at the early claim that "nuclear power is too cheap to meter"

There's a huge difference between nuclear and renewables that firmly comes down on the side of renewables: they can be deployed incrementally with variable levels of capital investment, and can be iterated on rapidly.

Solar can be deployed at a scale from a backpack camp charger all the way up to gigawatt-scale solar farms. It's the same technology.

This matters because it's exponentially easier to raise and deploy small amounts of capital continuously than to raise huge lump sums. Nuclear power requires huge lump sums. There are no reactors that, say, cost as much as a car or a laptop or even an aircraft. Reactors start at hundreds of millions for the smallest possible scale and go up rapidly from there.

Incremental cost leads directly to the ability to rapidly iterate. You can't rapidly iterate on things that cost hundreds of millions to billions of dollars. Every nuclear power plant is a monument.

There's been talk of small modular reactors for years, but "small" here is perhaps tens to hundreds of millions. That is still gigantic, too large for the kind of rapid iteration you get with electronics like solar panels and batteries.

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#87
post #10

If Germany's Green Party takes the same line, I think it will be a huge blow to Russia. Also, it's about time.

Where do you think the fuel for the reactors will come from?

Well not Russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_uranium_p...

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#88
post #10

If Germany's Green Party takes the same line, I think it will be a huge blow to Russia. Also, it's about time.

Where do you think the fuel for the reactors will come from?

Russia can't get their act together to keep their trucks running. Due to chronic economic malaise and instability, they're not going to be a reliable producer of that fuel for a while.

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#89
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The story for storage looks better than it ever has but it is still orders of magnitude more expensive more expensive than it needs to be to be practical. Storage is already cheaper than peaker plants and that's all it needs to be for now. Meanwhile HVDC lines appear to also be a viable solution: https://www.power-technology.com/projects/morocco-uk-power-p... Not mentioned in this article is the projected cost of t…

I can name some peaker plants but I struggle to name storage facilities other than a handful of oddities like https://damfailures.org/case-study/taum-sauk-dam-missouri-20...

For facilities with more than 1GW capacity Wikipedia has a list [1] (though note that that's merely the turbine's capacity, the total amount stored is the GWh figure that's missing for half of the entries).

There's also a list specifically with installations that aren't pumped hydro, but none of those would make the list above because of their limited capacity [2]. Pumped hydro dominates the storage game so far, both in number of installations and maximum size.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroel...

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_energy_storage_power_p...

Re: Finland’s Green Party endorses nuclear power

#90
post #3

I have heard a lot of chatter recently about how nuclear has fallen out of favor among certain circles on the left. Can someone explain what the reasons for that are?

It's difficult to have a rational discussion about nuclear power with all the pro-nuclear shilling and the anti-nuclear FUD. However the following concerns are standing: - Nuclear is becoming more expensive while solar and wind are becoming much cheaper. Nuclear and renewables compete for investments so people disagree on what to invest to. - Nuclear proliferation is an unsolved problem and the risk is growing due to…

> Nuclear is becoming more expensive while solar and wind are becoming much cheaper.

I'm all for renewables, but this seems rather distorted in a world where we don't price in the externalities of burning fossil fuel.

> Nuclear proliferation is an unsolved problem

Finland could have nukes if they wanted. If a technological backwater like North Korea can get them, anyone can.

Nuclear proliferation isn't being held back by technical details, but policies, international sanctions from the likes of the US etc.

> Centralized [power] production is intrinsically less democratic than distributed.

Is it? E.g. Norway and Switzerland are diversifying now, but for decades hydro-power dwarfed anything else in their energy mix. Hydro is arguably a lot more centralized than nuclear.

I could just as equally advance my pet theory that if your society doesn't have a collective stake in some sort of centralized infrastructure (health care, energy production etc.) that people are less likely to see any point in the whole project of collective decision making in a democracy.

But I think both of us would just be spitballing at that point.

> Safe very-long-term storage of nuclear waste is still being debated. Affordable solutions to reprocess and destroy existing waste have not been adopted yet.

Nuclear waste is known to be a non-issue to pretty much anyone in the know about nuclear.

If we actually cared about taking care of it we could enrich it and get rid of it that way.

It's not causing any near-term harm sitting in barrels on-site at nuclear power plants.

It's only an "issue" because it's really not, so nobody's had the incentive to really "solve" it politically.

> Deployment of new nuclear power takes decades and ...

DK, NL, and DE recently signed an agreement for off-shore wind that's expected to be fully completed in 2050. Everything takes a long time.

> ....might be too slow do address climate change.

We're pissing in the wind when it comes to climate change at this point.

> Many argue that society should address overproduction and overconsumption of goods, and therefore energy, rather than increasing energy production.

Those people are already free to try for a hunter-gatherer lifestyle in the Kalahari or Amazon, meanwhile most sensible commentators will note that there's pretty much a direct line between any metric that measures human prosperity and increased energy usage.

There's no issue with increased energy use per-se, just the production methods that have externalities, such as burning fossil fuel (without subsequent capture).

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