Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons • Hacker News Board

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#741

Post by ericlewis » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:14 AM UTC

serf wrote: post #664

Widdershin wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn’t generally exceed 15mph street skating. Competent downhill skaters can reach 50mph+, with world record speeds exceeding 80mph. That alone makes safety gear much more essential for downhill. In addition, if someone shows up to a spot without adequate gear, crashes and badly hurts themselves, it can cause the spot to be blown for other riders. Downhill skateboarding is much easier when you’re on the good si…

> You wouldn’t generally exceed 15mph street skating. Competent downhill skaters can reach 50mph+, with world record speeds exceeding 80mph. it's all context, no? You wouldn't try to trick over a 17ft drop on a longboard, either. [0] [0]: https://www.vice.com/en/article/kzn58e/the-leap-of-faith-was...

Sheckler has done bigger and many kids do more than 17ft drops for fun. When it comes to falling in street skating there is a certain pattern to falling and knowing how to “fall correctly” almost like stuntman do without helmets in movies all the time. Stuntman do sometimes wear padding, but not always.

Bombing a hill is very different from skating a stair set. The speed at which you do tricks is manageable to be able to tumble your body correctly if you fall (and you’re ready for that fall usually) but bombing a hill is an enormous amount of speed and you can’t prepare yourself for an unknown rock that throws you off.

That’s another somewhat important difference too with street skating, for big tricks you triple check the area and often sweep it because of those tiny rocks.

So context does matter. I’m not advocating against helmets but these are incredibly different things.

Edit: and fwiw I’ve hurt myself far more bombing hills than I have skating something like the big four in ATL. Notice how they fall: https://youtu.be/Ban0D24Aip4

(And the reason they aren’t making this trick is ironically they are not going quite fast enough)

Edit 2: and because I’m reminiscing a bit, the big four is hard because the run up is pretty short. You need good bearings and small wheels to gather the speed required. The only time I’ve ever seriously hurt myself in 15+ years of skating was doing a dumb trick in a standing position. Helmets are important for things like vert for sure where it’s lots of speed and lots of height, and if my kids and I go out and skate we wear helmets (they’re small and I want to set a good example). But most of street skating can be treated as though you’re a trained stuntman (because you basically are)

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#742

Post by lock-the-spock » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:00 AM UTC

rsanek wrote: post #633

krab wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to wear helmet as a passenger as well as a driver on such bike. The helmet doesn't add almost any inconvenience, is reasonably cheap and light. Why not wear it? I use shared bikes one-way quite often and I usually carry my helmet around, strapped to a backpack. In colder weather I would cycle in a business shirt. No issue with a helmet.

>Why not wear it? The argument that is mentioned in the article -- "increasing helmet wearing rates make cycling more dangerous per mile... because while helmets definitely help in the event of a crash, that risk compensation results in more collisions. So riders wearing helmets take greater risks, and those driving around them take greater risks too."

Is it that drivers wearing helmets take greater risks, or that drivers in more risky settings opt more often to wear helmets? Who can tell?

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#743

Post by lock-the-spock » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:02 AM UTC

spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

Their argument is that riders with helmets take more risk. I'd argue this is likely wrong causality. It seems far more likely that those in more risky settings (e.g. streets without cycle paths) are more likely to wear helmets.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#744

Post by sokoloff » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:10 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #651

louracryft wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is enormous, with almost no public transit outside of dense metro areas. As a result, cars hold a sacred place in society and jurisprudence. It is simply impossible to live without a car when your driveway is 10 miles long and the nearest "town" is 30 miles away. You can get a neverending stream of OUIs and keep your license after paying fines in most cases. We often joke that the best way to get away with mur…

> You can get a neverending stream of OUIs and keep your license after paying fines in most cases. What is that based on? People I know who have had DUIs had a lot of trouble and cost, their driving was highly restricted, and a second DUI would have stopped them from driving and maybe put them in jail (IIRC).

This is about the presumed record holder, so it’s the worst kind of citation, but a WI man was convicted of his 18th OWI (presumably operating while impaired)

https://www.grievelaw.com/WisconsinOWI/Laws/Record

That article contains a common trope: an official expressing shock and surprise at the offender’s record and uncertainty as to how they still had a license.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#745

Post by sokoloff » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:11 AM UTC

supertrope wrote: post #401

School-Cotton wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a matter of what’s actually written in the laws but of police/prosecutorial discretion. Whatever laws are on the books are virtually never actually enforced against motorists, because motorism (and disdain/resentment against cyclists) is deeply embedded in the culture. The default reaction of the median American (or at least, the median law enforcer) to any accident involving a motorist and a cyclist, regard…

The last time I did jury duty the judge and staff made sure everyone knew how to use the free parking. A jury of motorists isn't going to judge a fellow motorist harshly.

“Jury of their peers” indeed…

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#746

Post by Brian_K_White » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:22 AM UTC

rcxdude wrote: post #708

Brian_K_White wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of difference isn't as interesting as the fact of it. It indicates attention, which is worth a lot more than the inches.

Does it? That's a supposition, not a scientific fact. Presumably they all paid some attention by passing at a safe distance. I don't see why someone paying more attention would pass further away.

They moved over by coincidence? OK.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#747

Post by _abox » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:53 AM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #657

_abox wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands we're doing fine without them though. Nobody wears one on a regular bike. I've had a few times where I slipped so fast I didn't even remember what happened but every time my arm was there protecting my head. Reflexes are awesome. Accidents can happen sure but the added hassle doesn't seem worth it. Of course things are different when you do high speed cycling or mountain biking.

" In absolute terms, more people were killed in a car accident (237) than in a bicycle accident (203) last year, but this is different per kilometre travelled. Traffic mortality per billion vehicle-km was much higher among cyclists than among passenger car occupants (11 versus 1.6 deaths). " ( https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/31/decline-in-road-fatali... )

Well, obviously cyclists are more vulnerable. Considering that the numbers are pretty low IMO. The Netherlands have 16 million people, most of which use bicycles for daily travel. 200 died in a year, especially elderly who are exceptionally vulnerable. It's not something that warrants extreme worry. There's always risk in a life.

Also, it's something that is only a risk to the rider themselves so leaving it to their discretion is warranted IMO.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#748

Post by krab » Mon, May 23, 2022, 8:34 AM UTC

diebeforei485 wrote: post #715

krab wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to wear helmet as a passenger as well as a driver on such bike. The helmet doesn't add almost any inconvenience, is reasonably cheap and light. Why not wear it? I use shared bikes one-way quite often and I usually carry my helmet around, strapped to a backpack. In colder weather I would cycle in a business shirt. No issue with a helmet.

> Why not wear it? Car drivers often get head and brain injuries if they are involved in a collision with another car or with a tree/building. Do you wear a helmet when you drive? The helmet doesn't add almost any inconvenience, is reasonably cheap and light, as you say. Unless you're on a racetrack or driving a test vehicle, probably not.

For the record, I do wear a helmet on a racetrack in a car. :-) It adds major inconvenience, but the general risk on a racetrack is greater because you're pushing the vehicle to its limits.

The risk/inconvenience ratio seems OK for me when driving a car without a helmet but not for biking without a helmet. I'm not advocating for mandatory helmets. But I would feel very uncomfortable if they would be banned.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#749

Post by krab » Mon, May 23, 2022, 8:44 AM UTC

lock-the-spock wrote: post #742

rsanek wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why not wear it? The argument that is mentioned in the article -- "increasing helmet wearing rates make cycling more dangerous per mile... because while helmets definitely help in the event of a crash, that risk compensation results in more collisions. So riders wearing helmets take greater risks, and those driving around them take greater risks too."

Is it that drivers wearing helmets take greater risks, or that drivers in more risky settings opt more often to wear helmets? Who can tell?

Exactly. I've read the article but I don't find the argument very convincing. The helmet is light enough I don't think about it when driving. Does it really alter my driving style to be riskier?

I've cracked two helmets when I was younger. One in a forest, going downhill. Most probably, I wouldn't go there without a helmet. The other one was in a city, while distracted*. In the second case, the helmet definitely didn't have any influence on what I did. In both cases, I wore the helmet voluntarily and I was glad to have it.

The company from the article is definitely in a conflict of interests. Banning helmets, it doesn't have to provide (and check) protective gear for drivers and passengers. Also, it doesn't focus customers' attention towards potential risks.

* Putting a phone back into my bag, I accidentally hit a brake. Silly, don't ask me how I did that. Fortunately, no car was around.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#750

Post by maccard » Mon, May 23, 2022, 9:05 AM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #679

maccard wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between the speeds you travel at in a bowl and in very skating.

Speed doesn’t matter when you hit your head. I had a friend who fell while ice skating at the speed of a slow stroll, and hit the back of his head. He was dead a week later. And just getting a concussion can result in measurably decreased mental capabilities for months. Dad time: you’ve got one brain for your entire life. Stop relying on luck to keep it in working order.

But it totally does matter when you fall and smack your elbow. OP mentioned that bowl skaters are wearing no protective gear (pads/helmets), not just talking about helmets.