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Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

bikebiz.com

671–680 of 797 posts

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#671

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

Background: I do downhill longboarding as a hobby. > If some riders choose to not wear a helmet [...] ...we take their board from them, until they show up with one. This sport is almost completely unregulated (outside of official events), but somehow the community has developed an incredibly strong culture of keeping both yourself and the others around you safe. I guess something about being a niche sport, perhaps a…

Ok, so what you are saying appears to support Pedal Me's position as reported in the article. They say: (a) wearing helmets encourages risky behaviour; (b) the added risk of accidents outweighs the increase in safety during an accident. You are giving an example of a community who only engage in a dangerous activity if they wear helmets, supporting (a). And I imagine you would agree that you are less safe wearing a helmet and going downhill longboarding than not wearing a helmet and not going downhill longboarding? If so, that supports (b).

It's not a conclusive argument, of course, and I have no axe to grind on this issue. It's just that I think that you might not have taken in to account what they are saying.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Background: I do downhill longboarding as a hobby. > If some riders choose to not wear a helmet [...] ...we take their board from them, until they show up with one. This sport is almost completely unregulated (outside of official events), but somehow the community has developed an incredibly strong culture of keeping both yourself and the others around you safe. I guess something about being a niche sport, perhaps a…

Ok, so what you are saying appears to support Pedal Me's position as reported in the article. They say: (a) wearing helmets encourages risky behaviour; (b) the added risk of accidents outweighs the increase in safety during an accident. You are giving an example of a community who only engage in a dangerous activity if they wear helmets, supporting (a). And I imagine you would agree that you are less safe wearing a h…

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Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refutation of the Walker study which "assesses the extent to which the sample size in the original analysis may have contributed to spurious results". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3783373/

Response to the refutation: https://researchportal.bath.ac.uk/en/publications/bicycle-he... Olivier and Walter re-analysed the same data in 2013 and claimed helmet wearing was not associated with close vehicle passing. Here we show how Olivier and Walter’s analysis addressed a subtly, but importantly, different question than Walker’s. Their conclusion was based on omitting information about variability in driver beha…

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Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#674

I haven't seen anyone mentioning the Ian Walker study on drivers' responses to cyclists with and without helmets. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00014...

I don't have access to the study, but wasn't it the one where: - the author was the only person studied - the difference wasn't that big ?

That's the one. Due to its small size, it's more indicative of an effect - it would be interesting to see if it could be replicated. There's some bike cams (Garmin?) that include a radar to measure closeness of vehicles passing, so it would be relatively easy to conduct a much larger scale.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#675
post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it okay for you to set the acceptable risk bar and steal boards from anyone that doesn't agree? For the same reason we enforce seatbelts in cars: Enough people died. Then those who saw them die decided on these rules so we don't need to go through the same pain. The fact that you don't get this shows that the rules work.

Interesting you should bring that up. That was used as an example of unintended side effects of policy in my economics class, because when people started wearing seat belts, they drove faster and more recklessly, so while the seatbelts protected people inside the cars, the number of pedestrians hit by cars went up. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Hmm.

Most states brought on mandatory seat belt laws in the mid-1980s--mid-1990s. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt_laws_in_the_United_S...)

1981 was the last year with motor vehicle fatalities over 3.0 per billion miles. By 2000 it was 1.53 and 2019 it was 1.10. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...)

I can only find pedestrian fatality numbers from 1994. (https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/road-users/pedestr...) It decreased from 5584 in 1995 to 4109 in 2009 and increased to 6272 in 2019.

In 1995, there were 2,423 billion vehicle miles traveled; in 2009, 2,957; in 2019, 3,248. Doing the division, that works out to 2.3 pedestrian deaths / BVMT in 1995; 1.4 in 2009, and 1.9 in 2019.

Interesting.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#676
post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cycling in a vacuum is safe-ish and not a particularly risky affair. Cycling on a shared road with automobiles going eight times your speed and weighing some 250 times your bipedal vehicle’s weight is not so safe.

Differences in speed and mass are largely irrelevant if collisions don't occur. You can minimize the risk of a collision by following the rules of movement on the road (right of way and positioning) and anticipate if someone isn't following those rules and take appropriate action to avoid a collision before it's imminent. If passenger cars, large trucks and buses. and motorcycles can share the road, so can pedalcycli…

Yes, but humans being humans, this isn't the case and isn't going to be. Let's deal with reality, not reductionist fantasy.

If we take death of out of the equation we all live forever. It isn't a useful "if".

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#677
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>passengers wouldn't feel safe next to a helmet-wearing driver while not wearing one themselves. Wouldn't the same apply to mask wearing? Yet we consistently see service employees wearing them and customers not.

> Wouldn't the same apply to mask wearing? No, for a ton of reasons. Off the top of my head: (1) Masks are more effective at preventing transmission than reception. (2) Different individuals have different levels of concern, which might lead one to choose a mask and another to choose not to wear one. (3) Different individuals face different levels of risk. The person who is immunocompromised may wear a mask even when…

An acquaintance of mine worked in a casino that banned mask wearing by employees early on during the pandemic out of concern for worrying customers. Unfortunately several of his coworkers died of COVID before the lockdowns shut everything down.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Background: I do downhill longboarding as a hobby. > If some riders choose to not wear a helmet [...] ...we take their board from them, until they show up with one. This sport is almost completely unregulated (outside of official events), but somehow the community has developed an incredibly strong culture of keeping both yourself and the others around you safe. I guess something about being a niche sport, perhaps a…

Don't you think it's a little hypocritical to force everyone to draw their acceptable risk line at exactly where you happen to draw it? Longboarding is risky, downhill longboarding is riskier, doing it without a helmet slightly moreso, doing it naked probably slightly moreso. Why is it okay for you to set the acceptable risk bar and steal boards from anyone that doesn't agree? Should people that think that downhill l…

> Don't you think it's a little hypocritical to force everyone to draw their acceptable risk line at exactly where you happen to draw it?

I always find takes like this a little weird. This is something we do all the time in society. Seat belt laws. Bicycle and motorcycle helmet laws. All sorts of safety regulations and laws around sports, transportation, health, etc.

We as a society often decide to "protect people from themselves". Some of it is out of an understanding that humans are notoriously bad at risk assessment and will do unsafe things. Sure, that's a bit paternalistic, but... that's life. But some of it is also because severe injury and death don't just hurt the person injured or killed. The emotional toll of those effects are felt widely. The economic effects are felt widely too.

Certainly there are lines to be drawn, and there's plenty of reasonable debate as to where those lines should be drawn. Some possible safety measures might be very difficult, burdensome, or expensive; sometimes in those cases we can't require things like those without causing other types of harm. But others... not so much.

> Why is it okay for you to set the acceptable risk bar and steal boards from anyone that doesn't agree?

Because it's not just about the individual in question. It's about the entire community. The community of longboarders don't want severe injury and death on their hands, so they develop social norms that include requiring helmets. That's entirely within their right to do so, as it is their right to ostracize those who do not conform. (For the record, I think "steal their boards" was hyperbole. I doubt people's boards actually get taken. I expect it's more likely that they get shunned and ejected from the community.)

> Should people that think that downhill longboarding with a helmet is risky steal your board?

If the community consensus is there, then maybe that's reasonable. (In the "eject from community" sense, that is, not necessarily the literal "steal their board" sense.)

Certainly all of these sorts of decisions should be based on research as to what actually makes people safer. Humans are imperfect and don't always follow the science, but the hope is that, on a long enough time scale, with enough people weighing in, we'll get it right most of the time.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#679
post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protective gear was always uncool in street skateboarding. Vert (Tony Hawk's main discipline) was the exception. From what I understand it's about being counterculture, punk etc. Today even bowl riders mostly don't wear helmets or pads, and crashing in a concrete bowl is arguably even worse than on a wooden ramp.

There's a big difference between the speeds you travel at in a bowl and in very skating.

Speed doesn’t matter when you hit your head.

I had a friend who fell while ice skating at the speed of a slow stroll, and hit the back of his head. He was dead a week later.

And just getting a concussion can result in measurably decreased mental capabilities for months.

Dad time: you’ve got one brain for your entire life. Stop relying on luck to keep it in working order.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#680
post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK but longboarding is not essential like general transportation. Why ban helmet-less longboarding instead of the whole thing?

Cars aren't essential by that measure.

I think most people in the world -- even outside car-heavy US -- would disagree with that, even if they are not drivers or car owners themselves.
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