Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons • Hacker News Board

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#651

Post by wolverine876 » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:14 PM UTC

louracryft wrote: post #334

ascar wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? The US has such a high incarceration rate for in European eyes often benign offenses that I find that statement hard to believe even though I don't know the Dutch laws (I'm German). E.g. I can't imagine a Dutch person being incarcerated for injuring a cyclist unless it's on alcohol/drugs. I can totally imagine that for the US though. But I might be totally wrong. Would be really curious for some de…

The US is enormous, with almost no public transit outside of dense metro areas. As a result, cars hold a sacred place in society and jurisprudence. It is simply impossible to live without a car when your driveway is 10 miles long and the nearest "town" is 30 miles away. You can get a neverending stream of OUIs and keep your license after paying fines in most cases. We often joke that the best way to get away with mur…

> You can get a neverending stream of OUIs and keep your license after paying fines in most cases.

What is that based on? People I know who have had DUIs had a lot of trouble and cost, their driving was highly restricted, and a second DUI would have stopped them from driving and maybe put them in jail (IIRC).

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

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Post by wolverine876 » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

Drunk_Engineer wrote: post #611

kevinpet wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helmets, even the light helmets bicyclist wear, are very effective at reducing the severity of head injuries. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24686160/ That isn't to say that a policy of requiring helmets is good on net (because people may ride less), but in any accident that you hit your head, you would greatly benefit from wean a helmet.

This is junk science. The authors simply did the ANSI drop-test in a lab test. In the real-world, 99% of bike crashes with death/severe injury are the result of car-crashes -- which the ANSI drop-test does not model correctly at all.

It's usually a junk comment to call something junk science.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

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Post by MandieD » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:19 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #612

progman32 wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps those activities _should_ be discussing helmets.

Most sports where participants could materially benefit from helmet use absolutely do discuss helmets though usage varies from common (e.g. recreational downhill skiing) to almost universal--whitewater kayaking. Downhill skiing in particular has transition from essential no non-racers wearing a helmet to quite a high percentage in maybe a couple of decades.

In 2009, a German state governor caused a terrible skiing accident, which he survived but the victim didn't. He was wearing a helmet, she wasn't, and after that point, helmet sales in Germany and Austria shot through the roof and use has remained high. Before that, it was pretty much only racers and children.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

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Post by GekkePrutser » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:23 PM UTC

nemetroid wrote: post #600

_abox wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands we're doing fine without them though. Nobody wears one on a regular bike. I've had a few times where I slipped so fast I didn't even remember what happened but every time my arm was there protecting my head. Reflexes are awesome. Accidents can happen sure but the added hassle doesn't seem worth it. Of course things are different when you do high speed cycling or mountain biking.

Isn’t the Netherlands very flat? I would probably feel safe without a helmet if it weren’t for the hills. My usual ten minute ride has an elevation difference of 35 m.

Yes very flat.

35m isn't an awful lot though. You can pick up a lot of speed from a bridge in the Netherlands too.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

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Post by ndsipa_pomu » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:24 PM UTC

hgomersall wrote: post #566

altcognito wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, crumple zones for heads. If you could demonstrate that the helmet was splitting and taking energy with it maybe you could make an argument for splitting, but it seems unlikely that this is a mode of operation.

Why not? Given every helmet I've seen in a significant crash was split somehow, my assumption is that splitting is an important part of the energy absorption.

Polystyrene is very weak in tension (can be broken by hand) so won't be deflecting much energy. The principle is to slow the deceleration of the head by the polystyrene compressing and thus reducing the g-forces to the skull (not so much the brain which tends to slosh in the skull and cause concussion). Some motorbike helmets use materials such as polycarbonate which are intended to provide protection by breaking - quite different to bicycle helmets.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

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Post by cameronh90 » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:25 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #399

spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

I had a cycling accident when out training on a road bike coming down a hill doing about 50km/h and a delivery van turned in front of me into a parking lot. I hit the side of the van put a big dent in it and fractured my clavicle and t6 and had several cuts in my face. The helmet I was wearing was completely disintegrated on the side I hit the car with. Fortunately I was visiting Australia were cycling helmets were m…

I had a cycling accident where I misjudged how tight a corner was, ran off the path, high sided and head planted into a tree. I wasn't going fast, maybe 10mph, but clearly too fast for the corner. First injury in over 15 years of cycling. Nobody else involved, indeed, nobody else in earshot, let alone cars.

My friend was cycling up a hill on a cycle route and his handlebars fell apart. Not sure why, think it was metal fatigue - they split down the fork. He woke up on the floor with his helmet in tens of pieces and with no idea what happened.

Things can just go wrong quickly on two wheels, and the outcome is often smashing your head on something.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

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Post by mcguire » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

_abox wrote: post #542

idiotsecant wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could have the best designed city in the world and you will still be at a high risk of your fragile brain case impacting the ground or something worse at speed. Whether you're pedaling down a country road or the busiest NYC intersection not wearing a helmet on a bike is stupid, full stop.

In the Netherlands we're doing fine without them though. Nobody wears one on a regular bike. I've had a few times where I slipped so fast I didn't even remember what happened but every time my arm was there protecting my head. Reflexes are awesome. Accidents can happen sure but the added hassle doesn't seem worth it. Of course things are different when you do high speed cycling or mountain biking.

"In absolute terms, more people were killed in a car accident (237) than in a bicycle accident (203) last year, but this is different per kilometre travelled. Traffic mortality per billion vehicle-km was much higher among cyclists than among passenger car occupants (11 versus 1.6 deaths)." (https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/31/decline-in-road-fatali...)

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

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Post by MandieD » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #531

msrenee wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been over a decade since I last stepped foot in a ski area. I don't remember anyone wearing a helmet that wasn't on a snowboard. Are they more common now? It makes a lot of sense with how bad things go when they go bad plus all the trees.

It's almost ten years for me and the last thing I remember was a landslide shift from "hardly anybody" to "almost everybody" within only a few seasons (Austrian alps). Never read any triumphant reports about how this has saved ten thousands of lives though, so I suspect that numbers aren't that impressive.

The landslide was 2009/2010, after the Ministerpräsident of Thuringia caused a really bad accident, which he survived but the woman he crashed into didn't. He was wearing a helmet, she wasn't.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

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Post by golemiprague » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:29 PM UTC

Etheryte wrote: post #269

y7 wrote: post #63

Maybe relevant: the Netherlands is probably the country with the highest use of bicycles for transport, yet no one, except for cyclists on racing bikes/MTBs or foreign tourists, ever wears a bike helmet. This is because they're only marginally effective at preventing injury, and the disadvantage of reduced cycling use if helmets are mandated results in far worse public health outcomes. See also https://dutchreview.co…

This completely misses the forest for the trees and misattributes causality. The Dutch don't wear helmets because the traffic culture and infrastructure are completely different, not because of some questionable statistic no one has heard of. In the Netherlands you feel safe as a cyclist. Drivers look out for you because they're also all cyclists at other times. Cycling is so prevalent that it's hard to explain to an…

No post body was provided.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

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Post by rollcat » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:31 PM UTC

yucky wrote: post #465

rollcat wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Background: I do downhill longboarding as a hobby. > If some riders choose to not wear a helmet [...] ...we take their board from them, until they show up with one. This sport is almost completely unregulated (outside of official events), but somehow the community has developed an incredibly strong culture of keeping both yourself and the others around you safe. I guess something about being a niche sport, perhaps a…

>...we take their board from them, until they show up with one. I'm confused what this means. So you steal their board? Or are they borrowing/using someone else's board and they forfeit the right to use it?

TL;DR It probably wouldn't happen literally, but any local community is too small and interdependent.

I've never actually seen this threat "executed": the rules are all unwritten, but most people get a clue when reminded or lectured. My friend once wanted to skate in a broken helmet - it literally saved his life a few days before. We had a cute argument, he said it's not really broken if he only hit his head very lightly (so "lightly", he actually had a slight neck pain). I told him I'd buy that broken helmet from him at a full price, just so he doesn't use it, he wouldn't believe me until I took €150 out of my pocket. Eventually he agreed to not be an idiot ;)

If you'd insist on not wearing a helmet? On an official event, you'd probably get removed, possibly banned from future events. You need a sticker with your number on the helmet, so you wouldn't make it as far as the start line. I guess on an unofficial freeride, you just wouldn't get invited again - it's all invite only to begin with, and doesn't make much sense unless you have at least 3-4 people participating; someone needs to shuttle, you split the gas cost, sometimes you need spotters, etc. Randoms on a local spot? You either already know them (so you are allowed to yell at them), or they're new, so you make friends and they get a mentor.