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Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

bikebiz.com

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Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#351

Post by davisoneee »

RC_ITR wrote: post #254
oliwarner wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it rightfully illicits that response. Wearing a safety device shouldn't make an activity less safe. Your "simple equation" relies on your variables being solid. And they aren't. It's important to stress that the behavioural studies from Bath (that show helmeted riders take more risks in simulations, that cars give them less space) are not data about whether helmeted users are at greater risk. Or that comparisons…

> No, it rightfully illicits that response. Wearing a safety device shouldn't make an activity less safe. American Football vs Rugby and the difference in CTE is often cited as the prime example of where this is true. Helmets and shoulder pads encourage riskier hits.

I don't think that example is quite so obvious.

American Football is all about set plays. You line up and then charge at each other, meaning you have two lines effectively charging at each other and can focus all your effort on this one effort.

Rugby is much more fluid, so the amount of direct head-on-head collisions is much lower, and the distance someone typically runs before tackling someone is much lower as the 'engagements' are more frequent.

American Football is like going from 0-60mph every 10 minutes, whereas rugby is about sitting at 30mph constantly.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#352

Post by bluejekyll »

mertd wrote: post #331
spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

Very good point. The reasoning in the post assumes that the rider is responsible for all accidents.

While the article is very short, this was still easy to miss, “… and those driving around them take greater risks too.”

So it does in fact mention that both people driving around those wearing helmets as well as the cyclists themselves take greater risks.

The argument is that in the GP’s anecdote that the cyclist (and perhaps even the truck driver) would have taken less risky actions preceding the crash, thus avoiding it all-together.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#353

Post by pessimizer »

mertd wrote: post #331
spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

Very good point. The reasoning in the post assumes that the rider is responsible for all accidents.

The reasoning behind the ban is that they're recording more accidents and injuries with helmets than without. The speculation is that the helmeted riders are more aggressive. Neither the reason nor the speculation assume that the rider is responsible for all accidents.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#354

Post by snowwrestler »

prepend wrote: post #296
spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

This is one of those situations where there is a lot of fear and anecdotes but data shows that more accidents and injuries occur with helmets than without. A company should design their safety protocol well and it includes what equipment workers should and should not wear to protect them best. So prohibiting helmets is very responsible. Criticizing them seems to be taking an irrational stance that it’s better to addr…

It’s just really hard to eliminate adverse selection in population studies.

If people only choose to put on their helmets when doing dangerous things, but don’t bother when doing relatively safe things, then it’s going to look like helmet use is correlated with injuries. Even if, on a per-person basis, the helmet actually reduces injury severity.

And it’s difficult to test helmet effectiveness directly because it is widely considered unethical to randomly subject people to blows to the head.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#355

Post by ionwake »

I’m annoyed so many HNers have trouble getting their head round this.

Before commenting understand that :

Research studies show bike helmets increase number of injuries, due to complex reasons NOT attributed to the vehicle type or whether it was the riders fault.

It is why they are not legally required in bike heavy countries like the Netherlands.

I recommend you DONT comment unless you’ve done your research.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#356

Post by b3morales »

practice9 wrote: post #315
buildingsramen wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? These bikes are 2-3 meters long. There is no chance of this type of injury occurring with them.

Unless Pedal Me provide open-source data on which they based this decision, I don't believe it is based on safety. It's seems like marketing and cost-cutting issue for them. Customer: "Driver is wearing a helmet, and nobody provided helmets for us.. Are we in danger?" Pedal Me: "Say no more.. " Plus it seems they only bought caps & jackets for their drivers previously, no safety gear. Drivers are replaceable, aren't…

> And other thing, why is a 3 meters long bike road-legal?

Huh? Why shouldn't it be?

A normal road bike gets close to 2 meters at the tips of the wheels. Add a trailer and that's easily 3.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#357

Post by kixiQu »

mertd wrote: post #331
spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

Very good point. The reasoning in the post assumes that the rider is responsible for all accidents.

"So riders wearing helmets take greater risks, and those driving around them take greater risks too."

https://psyarxiv.com/nxw2k

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#358

Post by 323 »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #338
spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

It concerns me that there's so many stories of bike helmets cracking in two and allegedly having saved someone's life. Bike helmets are designed to compress under impact and as such, they are very weak under tension, so when you see a helmet split into two, it indicates that it wasn't working as designed. Compressed polystyrene in the helmet would indicate that it was doing its job.

It's not the polystyrene which cracks, but the plastic shell holding it in place. The separation will happen after the compression force is removed, because the compression will keep the split parts close together. Meaning that the helmet falls apart after it's done the job.

Also, there are various degrees of helmets, from a simple polystyrene to a mountain bike one to a motorcycle helmet.

You can always go to the next level if you want more protection. The polystyrene one is not supposed to be the end all of protection, just to be better than nothing with minimal inconvenience.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#359

Post by rollcat »

spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

Background: I do downhill longboarding as a hobby.

> If some riders choose to not wear a helmet [...]

...we take their board from them, until they show up with one.

This sport is almost completely unregulated (outside of official events), but somehow the community has developed an incredibly strong culture of keeping both yourself and the others around you safe. I guess something about being a niche sport, perhaps a bit of natural selection.

If e.g. a sponsor (hypothetically - I'm nowhere near good enough to get sponsorship) told me not to wear any particular piece of safety gear, I'd laugh them out of the room, and likely the entire local crew would join in the laughing. It's a small sport, once the word gets out, that company would also likely no longer be getting many sales either.

The only correct move for the Pedal Me riders is to go pedal for someone else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9yL5usLFgY

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#360

Post by 988747 »

nayuki wrote: post #241

This is very much like: > The name "Tullock's spike" refers to a thought experiment in which Tullock suggested that if governments were serious about reducing road casualties, they should mandate that a sharp spike be installed in the center of each car's steering wheel, to increase the probability that an accident would be fatal to the driver. Tullock's idea was that the normal process of risk compensation would the…

Can't that be seen as an argument against seatbelts and airbags as well?
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