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Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

bikebiz.com

201–210 of 797 posts

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#201

Wearing a helmet is a low-cost no-brainer and it provides increased protection. It does NOT turn riders into daredevils, fairly certain any statistics that say so don’t distinguish between single riders and those riding with cargo or passengers which are not idiots and know to adjust their riding accordingly. I’m fine with riders being able to choose whether to wear a helmet based on their skill, confidence and situa…

> Wearing a helmet is a low-cost no-brainer

Or in this case, a low-cost keep-your-brainer.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#202
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like if a delivery company banned their drivers from installing seat belts and airbags. Even if you are a perfect driver, other people aren't and on a bike, your will be the one hurting after a crash.

Not at all. Seatbelts are a legal requirement, helmets are not. This is employees wearing body amour, which is seen as either encouraging risk-taking, or giving the illusion that the activity is risky.

Not at all, the other analogy was better

Yours seems to be based on the assumption that if it is not mandated by law, it is not a good idea that can save lives, which is the criteria by which others are evaluating this

It's also worth noting that biking in a city around cars and bikes and other people IS objectively risky, to the point where it is completely reasonable for someone to choose to wear a single piece of safety equipment over their single most important human organ

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sorry, and pardonner mou Français, but what in the actual fuck? Do you wear a helmet when you drive inside your car? If not, why not? It might make you much safer in case of a crash, according to your reasoning. Wearing a helmet can itself become a leading factor to cause an incident, and it's clearly what they are hinting at in the linked article: that data seems to indicate that riders wearing helmets may be…

> Do you wear a helmet when you drive inside your car? If not, why not? Because I have a seatbelt, an airbag, and a reinforced shock absorbing shell around me.

So you wear a helmet as a pedestrian then? You are so unprotected!

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#204
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is the risk on the road is smaller when you don't wear a helmet because drivers take less risk with you. Even better if you are a woman in summer dress. Then the drivers give you way more space and are super careful around you. It was researched.

I think you're referring to Ian Walker's study. Yes, motorists on average passed helmeted cyclists closer than non-helmeted ones. The difference in average passing distance wasn't huge (1.3 m vs. 1.2 m) and was still a safe distance.

The amount of difference isn't as interesting as the fact of it. It indicates attention, which is worth a lot more than the inches.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#205
post #126
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riding on roads isn't like mountain biking where you mostly control the amount of risk you take on. Riding on roads puts you at the mercy of other people's choices. I feel the need to wear a helmet anytime I'm riding on a road for that reason.

Helmets protect against falls. They don't protect against cars.

I'm not sure I agree. I have a family member that had a car turn in front of the without warning (they were in a cycle lane, the car turned across the flow of traffic without looking or indicating), and they hit the side of the car and landed on the other side head first. They were left without any significant injuries - I'm not sure the outcome would have been as favourable without a helmet.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#206

I'm sorry, and pardonner mou Français, but what in the actual fuck? Should delivery drivers not wear seatbelts because they might not be as afriad that they'll fly through the windshield? Should linemen not wear harnesses because they might be more confident working on power lines? Should warehouse workers not wear hi-vis jackets because they might be more confident working around forklifts? Should construction worke…

> I'm sorry, and pardonner mou Français, but what in the actual fuck? Do you wear a helmet when you drive inside your car? If not, why not? It might make you much safer in case of a crash, according to your reasoning. Wearing a helmet can itself become a leading factor to cause an incident, and it's clearly what they are hinting at in the linked article: that data seems to indicate that riders wearing helmets may be…

I once organized a workshop on reasoning about uncertainty and in it a woman attended who was in charge of cycling safety for a large government organization of some EU country. She confirmed that, statistically speaking, cycling without a helmet is safer than with but mentioned this as a good example of likely confounding factors and a case where you cannot take the statistics itself for policy making.

But besides that, even if the average nation-wide number of accidents can be taken as a basis for nation-wide policy making because confounders can be ignored (a huge assumption), you can still not use this data reliably for individual decision making or policy making for smaller groups without further analysis. You need to account the variance, where the confounders occur, and what these confounding factors are. For example, regarding individual decision making, it could be the case that certain people who cycle with helmets on the average cycle more recklessly, but you cycle even more carefully with a helmet and are better protected. If so, you cannot take the average to inform your cycling. The same holds for other groups, such as professional cyclists for a company like in this article.

To give another example, consider accident statistics of self-driving cars versus human drivers nationwide. The human driver statistics include each and every reckless and drunk driver in the country, including many people with whom you'd never share a car ride. At the same time, you might have been driving accident-free for more than 40 years. For you personally, or a specific group you belong to, self-driving cars could thus be way more dangerous than driving yourself.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#207

I'm sorry, and pardonner mou Français, but what in the actual fuck? Should delivery drivers not wear seatbelts because they might not be as afriad that they'll fly through the windshield? Should linemen not wear harnesses because they might be more confident working on power lines? Should warehouse workers not wear hi-vis jackets because they might be more confident working around forklifts? Should construction worke…

> I'm sorry, and pardonner mou Français, but what in the actual fuck? Do you wear a helmet when you drive inside your car? If not, why not? It might make you much safer in case of a crash, according to your reasoning. Wearing a helmet can itself become a leading factor to cause an incident, and it's clearly what they are hinting at in the linked article: that data seems to indicate that riders wearing helmets may be…

> Do you wear a helmet when you drive inside your car? If not, why not? It might make you much safer in case of a crash, according to your reasoning.

Would it? I've never heard anyone recommend this, but if this did actually reduce the likelihood of a serious head injury in the event of a car crash, then I would seriously consider wearing a helmet while I drive a car. I have no problem wearing one while I ride a bicycle or motorbike.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#208
They argue that helmets are bad because they encourage riskier behavior, but also that they are unique in being able to track the behavior of their bikers. Shouldn't they be able to allow helmets and fire the people who behave in a riskier way due to wearing them?

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if even 1 incident occurs which was unavoidable by an unhelmeted cyclist which harms them more than they would have been harmed wearing a helmet, then the policy is unconscionable claiming you're removing safety equipment to reduce risky behavior is the tail wagging the dog. there are other ways to reduce risky behavior which do not have such tragic consequences as side effects to them.

> then the policy is unconscionable Let's say you do an A/B test on this policy and find 15 more people die with the helmet allowed policy, but in the other side, one person died who if they had chosen a helmet they likely wouldn't have. You're saying it is unconscionable to pick the policy where the 15 wouldn't have died? Do the other things to reduce risky behavior, certainly, but if this is an uncorrelated improve…

> Note, I doubt that this is actually true, but I wanted to highlight your moral apriori claims as ridiculous.

You failed to do that:

You didn’t address the agency problem where the 15 chose to engage in risky behavior while that 1 was coerced into dying — and ignoring the role of agency in the Trolley Problem is amateur hour. The helmets didn’t kill anyone, their following choices while wearing helmets did; which is in contrast to mandating no helmet, that is directly responsible for a death.

What you did was make a ridiculous argument that ignored the crux of the issue and pretend that the other person was wrong.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#210
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correlation vs causation much? In order to show that helmets *cause* accidents, they need to create a randomized study where they force employees to flip a coin to decide whether to wear a helmet or not. Otherwise, here's one plausible scenario: Employees who work in tiny suburbs with small roads and very little traffic feel safer, and this are less likely to wear a helmet. They get in less crashes because their town…

I can prove that helmets reduce head injuries both in quantity and severity.

You have the exact same causal issue to untangle. Do safer riders wear helmets or does wear a helmet make you safer as a rider?

In reality there are confounds both directions. The effects of helmet wearing are higly contingent based on the geography and demographics.

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