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Why America has so few carpenters

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Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#81

Post by rascul »

pyuser583 wrote: post #75
Barrin92 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Germany about 50% of high school graduates go into a traditional vocational program, many of which are crafts. Electrical work, the car industry, machinery, carpentry, woodwork and so forth. My family (with me being the first exception) is all blue collar and I understand that construction is uniquely taxing physically but from my parents and people younger I've never heard horror stories about lost fingers o…

I worked in a job that employed lots of disabled blue collar workers. It’s the joints: bad knees, bad backs. It’s not like back in the day where you get missing fingers. That’s really rare. But the steady grind of lifting, carrying, lifting, carrying, again and again destroys the joints. That’s harder to regulate away.

Hauling materials breaks your body over time. I know from experience.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#82

Post by rascul »

neither_color wrote: post #79
analog31 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to the inherent physical nature of the work, another problem is working for small businesses that fly under the radar of OSHA and other regulations. Also, family owned businesses don't have a "normal" career advancement process unless you belong to the family. When people come to work on my house, I've noticed that everybody who is around my age (58) is hobbling and broken.

On the other hand the family sized ones do jobs that aren't economically viable for a large unionized one because of too much overhead. The difference between a large construction company and a small one remodeling your home can be in the five figures. I think it's not fair to say that a family one lacks career advancement, it's like saying that a small web development shop doesn't have the same career advancement op…

> The difference between a large construction company and a small one remodeling your home can be in the five figures.

I work by myself, for myself, and I'm able to charge much less than most simply because I have almost no overhead and almost everything goes in my pocket. I don't need to pay for a building lease, employees, company vehicles, etc. But it'll take me a week to do what those other companies can do in a day.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#83

Post by oh_sigh »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #13
oh_sigh wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carpenters get RSI all the time too - or neuralgia e.g swinging a hammer 1,000 times a day for 30 years will take a toll on your elbow.

You realize hammers are a last resort tool these days when you can't get a nail gun somewhere.

For most modern guys, yes, but there are still a lot of other uses for a hammer. Whether it's just not worth it to break out the nailer, or light demolition, or aligning framing elements, etc. Personally, since I moved into my property a few years ago, I frame about 50 linear feet per year, which is next to nothing, and I still preemptively went out and bought an electric nailer. No clue how the old school guys did it and maintained feeling in their arm.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#84

Post by ftyers »

laingc wrote: post #73
lotsofpulp wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We already have a cost of living crisis, and raising the price of fruit and vegetables by removing these visas for seasonal workers seems like it would hurt everyone without helping anyone in particular. It helps local labor sellers to be in higher demand and hence negotiate higher prices who may have taken the option to pick fruit and vegetables.

I understand that argument, but the very high minimum wage and availability of state support means that in practice there is no market-clearing price for this labour. New Zealanders simply don’t want to do these jobs.

So maybe those jobs shouldn't be done? It doesn't sound like a complete disaster ...

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#85

Post by steve_adams_86 »

kixiQu wrote: post #16

My parents met when they were both working construction. My mom was a surveyor and a laborer at various times; she helped get my dad into the union (Philly) and he was a carpenter. My mom stopped it to raise me and my sibling; my dad did it until it entirely broke his body. (I would not be writing this as a college-educated adult if he hadn't had a union pension that kicked in on disability.) I know precisely one per…

Trades were not great for me. I felt like I was just waiting to get killed by a coworker constantly. For $25/hr CAD. Not a very good deal at all.

Apart from the risk imposed by working with totally careless and disengaged people in large machines, my body felt like garbage all the time. My elbow stopped working near the end and I couldn’t do simple things like open my car door. I learned to program as fast as my brain could accommodate. It was totally unsustainable.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#86

Post by [deleted] »

wardedVibe wrote: post #14
rdtwo wrote: post #3

Like every other profession with a supposed shortage the pay and work conditions suck. And guess what shortage… It’s like there is a shortage of people willing to pick fruit at 10$ an hour and live in terrible conditions while exposed to harsh chemicals. No shit you need to pay people a whole lot more money

Managers complaining about "not enough x" mean "I'm not willing to pay the market rate for x". Like, its a free market, up your price... or do you think basic economics don't apply to labor too? I'm surprised this article doesn't examine why companies aren't upping their pay.

[deleted]

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#87

Post by cudgy »

Spooky23 wrote: post #37
rdtwo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but carpentry has to be done and is getting done. It’s not so expensive you stop the job and wait for a lower price. My guess is you just use other unskilled labor and go for good enough. Maybe a true skilled carpenter isn’t worth the premium or the value isn’t clear to the buyer

The way it works is you have a subcontractor pay an immigrant under the table and get it done. The US clamped down on Mexican border crossings. Guess what? There’s no labor. Who would have thunk it.

This along with the cyclical nature of the housing industry are definite negatives for carpentry as a long-term career for citizens in the US. The fact that the article doesn’t mention the under the table nature of illegal immigrant work crews and how that puts downward pressure on wage rates is a blatant omission.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#88

Post by R0b0t1 »

phaedrus wrote: post #80
blackgirldev wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha. I joined the Navy in the 90s and when I got out I tried to get into auto mechanic school. They wanted me to sign up for an apprenticeship at a car dealership and were happy to take my tuition money. But no one would allow me (female) to apprentice. They would say "sure...wait a bit for a start date" then I would call to ask when to come in and they would always have given the spot to a male student. Even after ge…

Huh. That is an interesting point about carpentry not being as easy to self-teach. I don't think it's entirely impossible to do so, the Youtuber Mr. Chickadee being a counter-example: he's mentioned in interviews learning techniques from books, such as Japanese joinery. But then if you watch channels like Essential Craftsman it's clear there's a great deal of know-how that has to be passed on by someone who knows the…

You'll pass their "do you already know carpentry" test by being able to demonstrate basic safety knowledge and knowing which tool is which. You can definitely teach yourself carpentry, and they are likely selective because they have people coming in who have already self-taught a fair amount. So if you come in not knowing what a screwdriver or a drill bit is, they don't want you.

It would be unreasonable if they expected something like experience with specialty MDF blades and full panel saws. I doubt that is really what they wanted.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#89

Post by bsder »

blackgirldev wrote: post #53
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #4

If software engineering and carpentry paid the same, I'd be a carpenter.

Ha. I joined the Navy in the 90s and when I got out I tried to get into auto mechanic school. They wanted me to sign up for an apprenticeship at a car dealership and were happy to take my tuition money. But no one would allow me (female) to apprentice. They would say "sure...wait a bit for a start date" then I would call to ask when to come in and they would always have given the spot to a male student. Even after ge…

> But no one would allow me (female) to apprentice.

Wow. That's really shitty.

IBEW (electrical workers union) seemed to be pretty decent about apprenticing in Southern California.

My situation was the reverse: I wanted to get some training in electrical code, but didn't want to apprentice. That completely discombobulated everybody at the union--it was like they were seeing a space alien. They had no ability to accomodate my request even if I gave them money.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#90

Post by MisterBastahrd »

georgeoliver wrote: post #28

You can make a living as a carpenter, and the work is often glorious, but like lots of industries wealth is often built on the exploitation of labor. Unions have been gutted over the last 100 years, so if you want to run an honest business and earn a good income you need to do high-end work. But who are you working for? The upper classes. Of course these lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc. are not specifically to blame…

I remember watching a presentation on a high-end woodworker who just happened to be the son of a celebrity. He was working quite a bit with vacuum formed pieces that would sell for several thousand dollars in the 90s, with enough capital outlay from his father's money that he could build a dozen or so items at a time. It was then that I realized that the ability to make a living from crafting high-quality, modern furniture was probably a pipe dream for me simply because it would take me decades to gather the resources that this guy got for free, and by that time I'd be decades behind in relevant experience.
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