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The Food Bubble (2010)

theglobalrealm.com

21–30 of 125 posts

Re: The Food Bubble (2010)

#21

The article totally glossed over how the long orders were "rolled over" from one trading period to the next. This seems like a critical detail. What happens when all the orders come due and you're holding a bunch of long orders? Also, wasn't this on HN a while ago? Or did I see it somewhere else?

Frustratingly, the post you are probably thinking of was here: http://www.cpeterson.org/2011/03/10/why-gas-is-so-expensive-...

(Aside: this is one reason why I have so little trust in the web as a long-term historical medium.)

Although that article focused primarily on oil futures, it also discussed commodities futures, and specifically addressed the rollovers. Unfortunately, I neither understood it well enough at the time, nor remember it well enough now, to regurgitate it. Maybe someone else will come along with a cached copy.

Re: The Food Bubble (2010)

#22
It is a bit disconcerting to me that commenters here are fascinated by the technical analysis of this system and appear quite oblivious to the problem of starving human beings.

Perhaps I am not intellectual enough to appreciate the empathy hiding behind this analytical ruminating about the problem - but I wish that I got the impression that there was more reaction happening than "Wow, what an interesting phenomenon in the commodities market- how do all of these moving pieces fit together?"

To quote the sometimes poignant Jack Johnson: "Why don't the newscasters cry when they read about people who die? At least they could be decent enough to put just a tear in their eyes"

Re: The Food Bubble (2010)

#23

I usually don't do this, but this article is long. The summary (tl; dr) is as follows: 1) Large institutional long investments in a certain type of wheat future (Chicago soft red winter) started crowding out the real customers of physical wheat, such as bakers. 2) Because wheat varieties are moderately fungible/exchangeable, the downstream bakers started to use a different brand of wheat (Minneapolis hard red spring)…

He did mention it somewhat. Since the funds were only required to store 5% of their clients' money in the actual commodity, they could stash the rest of the money somewhere else safe, and then on top of that make money on transactional costs.

From another article I'd read before (which I linked to down below, and which is gone now), the funds made quite a bit of money in the rollovers by charging a fee to every investor who wanted to roll it over. Since none of their investors actually wanted a dump truck of grain showing up in their driveway, and since the price kept going up and up and up, they paid the fee to roll it over each time.

Somebody probably did lose their shirts, but it sure wasn't the funds, and the funds won't have any trouble doing this again, because there will always be more customers eager to park money somewhere to make more money.

Re: The Food Bubble (2010)

#24

I usually don't do this, but this article is long. The summary (tl; dr) is as follows: 1) Large institutional long investments in a certain type of wheat future (Chicago soft red winter) started crowding out the real customers of physical wheat, such as bakers. 2) Because wheat varieties are moderately fungible/exchangeable, the downstream bakers started to use a different brand of wheat (Minneapolis hard red spring)…

Regarding point number 3. There was a food crisis story reported back in 2008 about Haitians eating dirt to suppress hunger. Before the earthquake. Truly the worst luck in the past decade to affect a single group of people.

http://m.npr.org/story/18767313?storyId=18767313&from=mo...

Re: The Food Bubble (2010)

#25

It is a bit disconcerting to me that commenters here are fascinated by the technical analysis of this system and appear quite oblivious to the problem of starving human beings. Perhaps I am not intellectual enough to appreciate the empathy hiding behind this analytical ruminating about the problem - but I wish that I got the impression that there was more reaction happening than "Wow, what an interesting phenomenon i…

For what little it's worth, a lot of my commentary on HN for quite a while has been centered around the effects of things on real people -- whether it's UI, buggy software, or poverty.

And those conversations have generally not gone very well.

So I've recently started giving up. HN is just not the place for that sort of thing. It's a place where the audience-participants want analysis, they want technical details, they prize expertise, and they can't discuss value unless there's a hard real-world number involved.

That's not altogether bad, but I do hope that somewhere there is a group of smart people who actually think about the real-life problems that other people have, and try to do something about it. If there is, I don't know of it yet.

Re: The Food Bubble (2010)

#26

It is a bit disconcerting to me that commenters here are fascinated by the technical analysis of this system and appear quite oblivious to the problem of starving human beings. Perhaps I am not intellectual enough to appreciate the empathy hiding behind this analytical ruminating about the problem - but I wish that I got the impression that there was more reaction happening than "Wow, what an interesting phenomenon i…

For what little it's worth, a lot of my commentary on HN for quite a while has been centered around the effects of things on real people -- whether it's UI, buggy software, or poverty. And those conversations have generally not gone very well. So I've recently started giving up. HN is just not the place for that sort of thing. It's a place where the audience-participants want analysis, they want technical details, th…

Thanks for your insight and for your past championing of a more "ground level" approach to improving some crucial systems.

The sort of community of which you speak does certainly sound like an exciting and powerful one. I hope that it exists, and I hope that it finds you - and maybe me.

Re: The Food Bubble (2010)

#27
post #4

Something seems wrong with this story. I understand how speculation can push the price up but if the price goes too far above the true value for too long there has to be a drop - the bubble needs to burst at some point. Has there been a drop in price since this article came out? Have farmers adjusted to grow unusual amounts of wheat? Are there parties to the events who have been shielded (bailed out) from any downtur…

Goldman and other banks profited because they were selling the financial products, not buying them. The sellers always make money.

Investors who bought the Goldman products did eventually lose money, however not soon enough to stop millions of people from starving.

For me, the takeaway here is that tremendous wealth and power inequality creates conditions where the stupidity and inattention of a wealthy elite can easily cause the starvation, death, and suffering of the people they financially dominate.

This story has repeated over and over throughout history. Usually, it happens when a powerful person like a King or Emperor behaves irresponsibly and causes terrible suffering.

I'm reminded of Nero watching Rome burn or Stalin starving the Ukrainians.

Concentrating power and wealth in the hands of the few is a bad idea because their slightest indiscretion causes mass suffering.

Re: The Food Bubble (2010)

#28

It is a bit disconcerting to me that commenters here are fascinated by the technical analysis of this system and appear quite oblivious to the problem of starving human beings. Perhaps I am not intellectual enough to appreciate the empathy hiding behind this analytical ruminating about the problem - but I wish that I got the impression that there was more reaction happening than "Wow, what an interesting phenomenon i…

I think we all realize it's a terrible thing, but repeating how sad it is will get us nowhere. Understanding what caused it and how it works, on the other hand, can help us prevent further people from starving. I'm personally happy that HN often takes an analytical, rationalist point of view, rather than an emotional one like eg. Reddit tends to do.

Re: The Food Bubble (2010)

#30
post #2

Wow. I had no idea this happened. I'm surprised this story has not had more attention.

I thought the same thing when I first came across this info about a year ago. You might be interested in Matt Taibbi's "The Great American Bubble Machine" article. The title refers to Goldman Sachs, and the various bubbles that they have caused and how they did it: The great depression, tech stocks and the dot com bust, the housing bubble, $4/gal gasoline (and other commodities), the bailout, and their next target - the up-and-coming cap and trade/carbon credits market.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american...

Then there is his other article, on why no one went to jail:

Over drinks at a bar on a dreary, snowy night in Washington this past month, a former Senate investigator laughed as he polished off his beer.

"Everything's fucked up, and nobody goes to jail," he said. "That's your whole story right there. Hell, you don't even have to write the rest of it. Just write that."

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-stre...

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