Why do pilots still die from not knowing which end is up? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do pilots still die from not knowing which end is up?

#21

Post by apaprocki » Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 9:18 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #15

0x12 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a simple trick for that: I know the consumption of my car on a level road in 5th gear at 90 km/h, so when I'm in doubt about whether or not I'm going up, down or level I look at the fuel consumption indicator. If it is higher than 6.6L/100km then I'm going up, less is down. If you don't have a fuel consumption indicator then that will not work but lots of cars have them these days and I think using them as a l…

This is the first I've heard of fuel consumption indicators. What kind of car is it?

All car computers know this even if they don't display it to you. The computer directly controls the flow in the injectors and the computer knows their flow rate (unless you swap them out, of couse).

Re: Why do pilots still die from not knowing which end is up?

#22

Post by sliverstorm » Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 9:25 PM UTC

mechanical_fish wrote: post #11

bwooceli wrote: post #2

Good article, but I am a bit confused about how someone in 1906 (2nd page, top paragraph) supposedly did research on vestibular effects on pilots...

This article includes a statistic so scary that I'm going to have to fight the urge to paste it twice: According to a 2004 study, the average life expectancy of a non-instrument-rated pilot who flies into clouds or instrument conditions is 178 seconds. At that rate, I'd imagine it didn't take long after the first plane flight for pilots to notice that there was a big problem with, say, closing your eyes or otherwise…

Your parent is probably skeptical because in 1906 total human powered winged flight time could reasonably be measured in minutes. Europe still believed it was a hoax. Pilots didn't even have instruments let alone a cockpit. If you were a pilot, odds are your name was either Orville or Wilbur.

Remember, the Wright brothers first flew in 1903.

As another reply points out, it was likely blimp, balloon or some other form of aviation that spurred the research on vestibular effects.

Re: Why do pilots still die from not knowing which end is up?

#23

Post by antoinehersen » Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 9:25 PM UTC

apaprocki wrote: post #10

Given the analysis of what happened in the recent Air France crash, I can't imagine why the industry does not write better software to help combat this. It seems as if the programmers writing the software are more concerned about writing valid code to fit the designed system ("the pilot signaled us to climb at exactly 40 degrees, so do it") rather than writing code that models the real world situations accurately. I…

Pilots are very reluctant to hand over control to any kind of computer. It goes completely agains their self image. This is more true in certain company than other.

A very similar phenomenon is how the USAF crashes more drones than the Army since they use pilots that insist on flying them in manual, vs the Army operators that do not consider themselves pilot. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/29/young_usaf_predator_...

Commercial flight will become much safer when the persons in the cockpit will considere themselves plane operators vs pilots.

Re: Why do pilots still die from not knowing which end is up?

#24

Post by vladd » Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 9:30 PM UTC

apaprocki wrote: post #10

Given the analysis of what happened in the recent Air France crash, I can't imagine why the industry does not write better software to help combat this. It seems as if the programmers writing the software are more concerned about writing valid code to fit the designed system ("the pilot signaled us to climb at exactly 40 degrees, so do it") rather than writing code that models the real world situations accurately. I…

There are several types of "flight law" modes (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_control_modes_%28electro... ) that define the set of protections enforce-able by the software.

For example, in the case of Airbus airplanes, flying in normal law's flare mode provides protection against high angle of attack and bank angle protection.

However, when something bad happens, the plane is usually switched in alternate or direct law, based on the philosophy that the software can fail and the pilot is the only one able to see the big picture and compensate for possible faulty sensor data. It's all a question of who to trust in highly-tensed situations: is the pilot suffering from vertigo or it's just a matter of faulty sensor readings due to external ice build-up?

And if the software were to override pilot decisions, just think about liabilities in case something goes wrong, which is a Pandora's box for aircraft manufacturers.

Re: Why do pilots still die from not knowing which end is up?

#25

Post by ispolin » Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 9:30 PM UTC

greendot wrote: post #7

> According to a 2004 study, the average life expectancy of a non-instrument-rated pilot who flies into clouds or instrument conditions is 178 seconds. That is a chilling statistic. As a VFR pilot, I often wonder what would happen inside a cloud to make me react and rip my plane apart in under 3 minutes.

Here is the fatal scenario: http://www.aerosafe.net/page6.html

As a VFR pilot, you've received basic instrument training. Remember that training, trust your instruments, and you'll make it though.

Re: Why do pilots still die from not knowing which end is up?

#26

Post by 0x12 » Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 9:31 PM UTC

greendot wrote: post #7

> According to a 2004 study, the average life expectancy of a non-instrument-rated pilot who flies into clouds or instrument conditions is 178 seconds. That is a chilling statistic. As a VFR pilot, I often wonder what would happen inside a cloud to make me react and rip my plane apart in under 3 minutes.

It's an average, you might do better.

Dramatized:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXzYZjpoz_E

Re: Why do pilots still die from not knowing which end is up?

#27

Post by electromagnetic » Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 9:37 PM UTC

greendot wrote: post #7

> According to a 2004 study, the average life expectancy of a non-instrument-rated pilot who flies into clouds or instrument conditions is 178 seconds. That is a chilling statistic. As a VFR pilot, I often wonder what would happen inside a cloud to make me react and rip my plane apart in under 3 minutes.

I think it's that so much of our orientation is dependent on peripheral vision. I know Canadas worst pile up was caused by a heavy fog. 87 vehicles piled up, they believe in a very short time from the fog rolling in. The main factor was speed, basically people were over driving their view distance. Visibility was estimated to be something like 50 meters, but driving at 110kph gives you a stopping distance of around 150 meters. What worsened the incident was that light fog generally reduces drivers speed, but heavy fog is known to increase speed as the lack of peripheral markers means people can't gauge their speed and too few drivers check their speedometer.

I'm sure a pilot in dense cloud has the potential to make a whole host of mistakes. First I'm sure without instrumentation a pilot would quickly lose gauge on how level they're flying, or second guess how level they're flying and try to adjust. If you get caught in a cloud with a very low ceiling, there's probably not much time between exiting the cloud and that "Oh shit, that stuffs the ground". Or a slight climb and not enough thrust could easily compromise your speed and put you into a stall.

I'm quite sure 3-dimensions of travel is a real bitch when you're blind and can't stop.

Re: Why do pilots still die from not knowing which end is up?

#28

Post by electromagnetic » Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 9:46 PM UTC

ispolin wrote: post #25

greendot wrote: post #7

> According to a 2004 study, the average life expectancy of a non-instrument-rated pilot who flies into clouds or instrument conditions is 178 seconds. That is a chilling statistic. As a VFR pilot, I often wonder what would happen inside a cloud to make me react and rip my plane apart in under 3 minutes.

Here is the fatal scenario: http://www.aerosafe.net/page6.html As a VFR pilot, you've received basic instrument training. Remember that training, trust your instruments, and you'll make it though.

With an altimeter, an artificial horizon and an airspeed indicator, you would expect a VFR pilot to be able to get through any light cloud safely.

Untrained, never having touched the cockpit of a plane, I can get the meaning from these instruments. Is it simply that pilots fly without these, or that they simply disregard them during flight?

Re: Why do pilots still die from not knowing which end is up?

#29

Post by crikli » Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 9:50 PM UTC

"According to a 2004 study, the average life expectancy of a non-instrument-rated pilot who flies into clouds or instrument conditions is 178 seconds."

This statistic is the aviation equivalent of the "Bill Gates is going to give you $5" email forward.

The study was in 1954, not 2004, and the pilots that were tested had zero instrument time (at least three hours are required to get a license now). They were put into Beechcraft Bonanzas, aircraft that none of the test subjects had time in; Bonanzas aren't tough to fly but you definitely have to transition into them, especially if you're not used to planes with more horsepower than a Cessna 172...they get ahead of you way faster.

That said, if you're a VFR pilot and you knowingly proceed into Instrument Meteorological Conditions, you're probably in for some unpleasantness.

Re: Why do pilots still die from not knowing which end is up?

#30

Post by 0x12 » Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 9:53 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #22

mechanical_fish wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article includes a statistic so scary that I'm going to have to fight the urge to paste it twice: According to a 2004 study, the average life expectancy of a non-instrument-rated pilot who flies into clouds or instrument conditions is 178 seconds. At that rate, I'd imagine it didn't take long after the first plane flight for pilots to notice that there was a big problem with, say, closing your eyes or otherwise…

Your parent is probably skeptical because in 1906 total human powered winged flight time could reasonably be measured in minutes. Europe still believed it was a hoax. Pilots didn't even have instruments let alone a cockpit. If you were a pilot, odds are your name was either Orville or Wilbur. Remember, the Wright brothers first flew in 1903. As another reply points out, it was likely blimp, balloon or some other form…

You forgot about Santos-Dumont, and many others besides.

Europe definitely didn't believe it was a hoax, in fact there were lots of people working at attempting powered flight.

That does not diminish the accomplishments of the Wright brothers in any way, but to make it seem as though Europe did not believe powered flight was possible is not true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_history

The time was simply ripe, lots of the bits and pieces had been developed by those that had gone before, such as Lilienthal (who built some pretty amazing gliders) and many others.