What is our hidden consumption of microplastics doing to our health? • Hacker News Board

Re: What is our hidden consumption of microplastics doing to our health?

#271

Post by moistly » Thu, May 19, 2022, 9:36 PM UTC

matthewdgreen wrote: post #122

barbegal wrote: post #11

The actual study is here https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030438942... The study presents three scenarios assuming different assumptions about the mass of plastic particles. In the worst case scenario, where I think the assumptions are bad, they estimate 5g of plastic per week. In the other two scenarios which used more complex but more realistic modelling they estimate 0.15 and 0.3g of plastic cons…

What’s worrying about this is that we’re about 50 years into an unexplained epidemic of obesity and metabolic disease that nobody has a clear explanation for, and is also affecting lab animals fed controlled diets. It would be fascinating if this was all correlated with a common environmental contaminant, and the increasing use of various plastics could line up well.

And don’t forget that sperm counts have dropped a frightening amount, and that plastics leech hormone analogues.

Re: What is our hidden consumption of microplastics doing to our health?

#272

Post by zamfi » Thu, May 19, 2022, 10:02 PM UTC

rajin444 wrote: post #267

zamfi wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may find this exposition interesting: http://achemicalhunger.com/

Even they admit that in the end CICO is correct. You cannot escape physics. That being said, the real question is: if somebody stopped eating, would their body die instead of using their fat for energy? There could definitely be cases where that happens (likely caused by modern tech / science), but given things like this happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast It’s likely just a willpower/intell…

Sure, CICO definitely applies, but so what? The first derivative of stored calories doesn't tell you anything interesting about causes.

Your bank balance is a sum of money coming and and money going out, but what causes money coming in and what causes money going out are much more useful to anyone trying to earn wealth or avoid debt than the mere fact that your bank balance is their sum.

Like you, many people are convinced that the issue is "willpower / intellect". But this doesn't share a causal relationship with CICO! The willpower argument is like saying "oh yeah, to become rich, just earn more than you spend!" -- sure, that's true, and then someone says "ok, how do I do that?"; if your answer is "willpower!" I doubt they'll find that very satisfying.

Since I suspect you didn't read the post either, I'll excerpt two questions here:

(1) Rates of obesity in lab rats -- whose diets haven't changed -- have also increased over the last 50 years. Do they lack willpower too?

(2) Average calorie consumption hasn't changed much over the last 50 years, and nor has calorie expenditure. Average weight gain is in fact super slow, on the order of a few pounds per year, for most obese individuals. That's the equivalent of overeating by ~7000 calories each year -- only 1% of typical annual consumption. It's hard to imagine that people don't have the willpower to reduce their food consumption by 20 calories per day. Losing weight by keeping up a caloric deficit requires a ton of willpower because your body super fights against starvation. But why would a lack of willpower be the reason people perpetually eat 1% too many calories? And why did they only start doing that 50 years ago?

CICO is not a useful causal explanation for the obesity epidemic. Obesity at the societal level is a more interesting problem than merely CICO, despite how many people think the reason is some variant of willpower.

Re: What is our hidden consumption of microplastics doing to our health?

#273

Post by kaezon » Thu, May 19, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

zamfi wrote: post #238

bb123 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s unexplained at all. People just don’t like the explanation. People simply eat too much and don’t move enough. The secondary reasons behind that are many but again pretty easy to see (more desk jobs, cheap high calorie foods, automobile ownership etc)

Most folks who respond like this are not looking for reasons to believe they might be wrong, but just in case you are, please take a look at A Chemical Hunger [0], which explores these questions in some depth. It turns out, the simple explanations (people eat more & move less! too much sugar! etc.) are in fact insufficient. [0] https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/11/a-chemical-hunger-p...

Thank you for this citation! I've at least heard that CICO was nonsense, but the author has done a fantastic job researching the subject, breaking down common approaches to weight loss, and studies which have examined them.

Re: What is our hidden consumption of microplastics doing to our health?

#274

Post by spywaregorilla » Thu, May 19, 2022, 10:13 PM UTC

zamfi wrote: post #238

bb123 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s unexplained at all. People just don’t like the explanation. People simply eat too much and don’t move enough. The secondary reasons behind that are many but again pretty easy to see (more desk jobs, cheap high calorie foods, automobile ownership etc)

Most folks who respond like this are not looking for reasons to believe they might be wrong, but just in case you are, please take a look at A Chemical Hunger [0], which explores these questions in some depth. It turns out, the simple explanations (people eat more & move less! too much sugar! etc.) are in fact insufficient. [0] https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/11/a-chemical-hunger-p...

I don't buy it.

> 2.1 Calories in calories out is a bad model

True. It's insufficient. But it's not nothing. The article later claims that calorie consumption has "only" risen by about 20%. I find this take to be ridiculous. 20% is a lot. If I eat 20% more, I'll put on weight.

Article also claims sugar consumption is down and carb consumption is down so therefore they can't be the cause. Yet in prior years we see an extremely strong correlation between carbs and sugar consumed per person and % obesity. Corn vs. actual sugar. Artificial zero calorie sweeteners. It all adds up.

Re: What is our hidden consumption of microplastics doing to our health?

#275

Post by spywaregorilla » Thu, May 19, 2022, 10:17 PM UTC

jnwatson wrote: post #263

CuriouslyC wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Highly unlikely. The obesity epidemic is very well explained by diet and lifestyle choices, and regional variations in average body mass correlate with these explanatory variable pretty well.

This is largely debunked by a paper posted on HN a while back I can’t seem to find right now. Even our pets are getting fat. Previous experiments both natural and manmade indicate that homeostasis prevents long term weight gain in situations of high caloric availability. The conclusion of the paper was that something was introduced into the environment in the 70s that is disrupting humans’ and nearby mammals’ homeost…

You mean the dogs eating corn based diets?

Re: What is our hidden consumption of microplastics doing to our health?

#276

Post by bryceacc » Thu, May 19, 2022, 10:18 PM UTC

flaviut wrote: post #268

danShumway wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't done a ton of research into VOCs, but my understanding is that most purifiers targeting them use activated charcoal filters? Those filters are pretty cheap, you can tape them to a Corsi-Rosenthal Box without adding much cost at all. If there's something more complicated going on then maybe that wouldn't be effective, but in general air filtration is just a combination of how much air your filter is moving a…

The cheap activated charcoal filters are bullshit. You can't absorb things without absorbant mass. The black plastic sponge has hardly any mass at all, period. I however do not have a good solution. I've DIY'd my own filter with charcoal pellets, but I've been unable to test it, and I'm somewhat unhappy with the design anyway.

correct, i remember discussion a long time ago that people would buy HVAC booster fans that look like inline duct fans and then put a giant bucket of pellets on the top of it to suck through

Re: What is our hidden consumption of microplastics doing to our health?

#277

Post by bb123 » Thu, May 19, 2022, 10:21 PM UTC

spywaregorilla wrote: post #274

zamfi wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most folks who respond like this are not looking for reasons to believe they might be wrong, but just in case you are, please take a look at A Chemical Hunger [0], which explores these questions in some depth. It turns out, the simple explanations (people eat more & move less! too much sugar! etc.) are in fact insufficient. [0] https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/11/a-chemical-hunger-p...

I don't buy it. > 2.1 Calories in calories out is a bad model True. It's insufficient. But it's not nothing. The article later claims that calorie consumption has "only" risen by about 20%. I find this take to be ridiculous. 20% is a lot. If I eat 20% more, I'll put on weight. Article also claims sugar consumption is down and carb consumption is down so therefore they can't be the cause. Yet in prior years we see an…

Exactly! That’s 400 calories a day for the average person. Combine that with less physical activity and you’ve just found the source of your problem.

We can even work it out: 1lb of human fat has ~4000 calories in it. If we assume that only 10% of those excess calories actually end up as fat thats still 70lbs of additional weight by the time you’re in your mid 20s.

Re: What is our hidden consumption of microplastics doing to our health?

#278

Post by sva_ » Thu, May 19, 2022, 10:21 PM UTC

Arrath wrote: post #163

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yep. the exact same thing. i get to buy them in huge 5 Kg rocks because its just a few hundred km away but that is the reason.

Honestly that's kinda cool. And I refuse to imagine anything but a melon sized hunk 'o salt on the dinner table, with a small hammer and chisel for those who want to salt their meal.

I think if you keep the salt exposed at the atmosphere, you'll quickly run into the problem of it absorbing a lot of water.

Re: What is our hidden consumption of microplastics doing to our health?

#279

Post by notahacker » Thu, May 19, 2022, 10:23 PM UTC

zamfi wrote: post #238

bb123 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s unexplained at all. People just don’t like the explanation. People simply eat too much and don’t move enough. The secondary reasons behind that are many but again pretty easy to see (more desk jobs, cheap high calorie foods, automobile ownership etc)

Most folks who respond like this are not looking for reasons to believe they might be wrong, but just in case you are, please take a look at A Chemical Hunger [0], which explores these questions in some depth. It turns out, the simple explanations (people eat more & move less! too much sugar! etc.) are in fact insufficient. [0] https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/11/a-chemical-hunger-p...

Obviously there are a large number of factors which affect the weight of a specific individual, and food intake and exercise are only two of them, but that blog's attempts to deny the causation behind the correlation looks far more highly motivated than anybody pointing out that trends in obesity mirror trends in diets and lifestyle changes.

I mean, he handwaves away the statistic that suggests the mean US citizen's calorie intake increased by nearly a quarter over the period that obesity rose simply by saying "that's not a jaw dropping increase". He thinks a study in which people's food intake was increased by 50% showed a significant average weight gain in just three weeks undermines the argument that feeding a population an average 25% more per day for the rest of their lives could increase obesity! I'm actually less suspicious that calorie counts are an oversimplification after reading what he citates as evidence against them; you could make a pretty good case for diet being the sole cause of increased obesity in the US from the references he makes to argue it's unrelated!

(Nothing wrong with the "lipostat" hypothesis he proposes as the alternative per se, but moving the cause of obesity onto "changes in how many individuals' bodies identify satiation points and metabolise food intake" doesn't result in a hypothesis which is independent from how diet has changed, it just complicates the causation a bit)

Re: What is our hidden consumption of microplastics doing to our health?

#280

Post by bryceacc » Thu, May 19, 2022, 10:23 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #97

In a slightly different direction than consumption, if you're worried about inhaling plastic particles: I haven't personally gotten the equipment to do actual measurements yet, but I keep pet rats and they have pretty fragile respiratory systems, and anecdotally when I put together a Corsi Rosenthal Box[0] and stuck it next to their cage their allergies/sneezing pretty much entirely vanished. I still need to get air…

it's true that cube might outperform many commercial grade purifiers but unfortunately it's only because fires/pandemic have skyrocketed prices on purifiers and made a bunch of scammy looking ones. As you see with that box, having a filter medium and a fan is all you need. No plasma/uvc or charcoal filters necessary. I only have a couple purifiers that are $100 each and have a good centrifugal fan and a filter in front of it that can be replaced for $30. A box fan as pictured doesn't have as much static pressure to pull through the filter well, but because you have four filters worth of surface area its fine. All you could upgrade with a commercial solution is having a smaller physical footprint.