Live data from Hacker News

Tell HN: The loneliness of a pretty good developer

news.ycombinator.com

191–200 of 519 posts

Re: Tell HN: The loneliness of a pretty good developer

#191
post #21

“If you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room.” I know saying this is easier than doing it, but; seek upward movement until you no longer feel like you're the smartest person in the room. I would also add, although it's purely personal opinion, that seeking a solution to loneliness through work is a surefire way to feel more lonely. You say you're big on self-improvement, but are you only focus…

> seek upward movement until you no longer feel like you're the smartest person in the room.

What do you mean by "upward"? If it's the classical meaning: you're not guaranteed to find smarter people higher in the organization.

Re: Tell HN: The loneliness of a pretty good developer

#192
post #94
post #21

“If you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room.” I know saying this is easier than doing it, but; seek upward movement until you no longer feel like you're the smartest person in the room. I would also add, although it's purely personal opinion, that seeking a solution to loneliness through work is a surefire way to feel more lonely. You say you're big on self-improvement, but are you only focus…

I like to say I aim to be the second dumbest person in any room.

And Feynman was in the wrong room his entire life.

Re: Tell HN: The loneliness of a pretty good developer

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difficult to say without knowing the OP personally, but in my experience, all of this can square. There’s complex dynamics at play that are a product of the genius developer mythology: someone produces a lot of code, the system becomes an extension of that person, everyone becomes dependent upon that person regardless of whether the person is good or bad, enjoyable to work with or not, because they’re the genius syst…

This is a fair criticism and concern. Part of the reason why I made this post is I can sense internally that I'm starting to lean on the whole "I know this thing better than you", which actually scares me. If I'm thinking it, I'm probably sub-communicating it. Both this reply and your original one are solid thoughts. > someone produces a lot of code, the system becomes an extension of that person, everyone becomes de…

> I know this thing better than you

Whenever I hand code over I ask, does it make sense? Usually they say something like, yep looks easy.

I used to think it was because I was a dumb ass and only wrote simple stuff, but finally realized it's because I spend large effort on making the code read like english. (Good function names, good variable names, code that looks like logical short sentences, etc.)

All this to say, if you make code it's own wiki, you can avoid "I know this thing better than you" quite effectively, and complex code can be made to seem quite simple.

You may already doing that, but thought I'd share in case it's helpful in any way!

Re: Tell HN: The loneliness of a pretty good developer

#195
post #16

I think you're an above average developer working at a below average company. This could be the root of all your problems. Nothing is more frustrating than working with peers you know aren't carrying their weight. Do you want to be an engineering leader? This is what you are, regardless of your official title at your company. Engineering leaders are judged by how much better they make everyone else. You may hear the…

The pivot I have been debating is to become a Lead Development Manager with the express purpose of enabling everyone else, removing obstacles, creating better processes etc. My problem is that I love code much more than talking to people all day. I have been mentoring Jr Devs for a while now in an official capacity which helps. I like the idea of "make systemic changes to help your peers become more effective". So th…

If you want to just code, just code.

I accept you're a gifted coder, and that you're better than your peers. Good, then do exactly that.

Being good at mentoring people is only vaguely correlated with being good at code. IMHO, the main factor that will make you good at something is caring about it, and if you don't want to talk to people you'll waste your skills.

There is someone out there who would love to talk to people, worry about their development, figure out how to best use your skills and so forth. Let them do it.

Re: Tell HN: The loneliness of a pretty good developer

#196

You're not a 10x engineer. You're a 2x who hasn't figured out yet how to teach other engineers what you know. It sounds like it's past time you got started, for your own sake as much as that of those around you.

I actually try to help others. Though I admit that I should be doing it more.

It might be helpful to think about what you mean by “help.” It sounds like people fairly frequently come to you for your opinion, to get an answer to a question or to solve a problem. It is extremely easy to give them what they’re asking for (the answer, a solution,) and it even feels helpful in the moment.

This doesn’t help people grow in the long term, though. It builds dependence on you and your skills. You can quickly become the bottleneck (unintentionally!) and the “smartest guy in the room” by virtue of handing out answers and hoarding domain knowledge instead of developing the people around you.

I don’t know you, so I don’t know if this is what’s going on. If it sounds familiar though, I have two suggestions. First, read The Phoenix Project and pay attention to the character arc of Brent and see if his journey rings any bells. Second, next time someone comes to you for help, or asks for your opinion, instead of giving them the answer directly, coach them through the problem solving process by asking questions until they arrive at the answer themselves. This will help develop that problem solving muscle that they need and help them to level up.

Re: Tell HN: The loneliness of a pretty good developer

#197

You're not a 10x engineer. You're a 2x who hasn't figured out yet how to teach other engineers what you know. It sounds like it's past time you got started, for your own sake as much as that of those around you.

> You're not a 10x engineer. You're a 2x That's not a fair characterization. Did you read his post? He said, > In my direct team of 10 people, myself included, I have completed 71% of all story points in 2022 So on average, the other team members complete about 3.2% of the work, and he does 71%. At least in relation to his team, he's ~20x in output.

> So on average, the other team members complete about 3.2% of the work, and he does 71%.

Without further context, though, those numbers are meaningless. There's been spans in my career where those sorts of numbers would apply to me but not because I'm an nX developer but because, e.g., a lot of the stories were related and it made sense for me to do them as part of an ongoing sequence whilst the others handled, e.g., bug fixes in other areas.

Re: Tell HN: The loneliness of a pretty good developer

#198
I would describe myself having been that person in my previous role (of six years). Started as dev#2, grew to ~100 people, you grow along with the company, having seen everything, had a hand in making most of it, it'd make anyone an expert.

Eventually it got to the point where our engineering manager would assign maybe 10% of my sprint capacity. 40% of it; I already knew what to work on. Stuff my manager, and the manager's manager, had no clue how to plan for. I was rarely included in product planning because "we need you to focus on the work". Literally none of them seemed to care that they didn't have visibility into what I do. Whatever; I'll just create the tickets myself, basically manage the sprint planning for a team of one (me). That worked well. Actually pretty nice. The other 40% was just Slack. Messages all day. "Ramp up meetings" with new hires. "Hey man can you document this thing" (no one ever reads it) (three months later 'hey man can we meet for two hours to talk about this thing I'm not understanding it') "Can you hop on this customer call in two hours, we need someone to talk about single sign on" (sure man, I'll recite the same script I've used for the last fifty meetings, and that I posted in our internal help database, that your team has somehow spent three years NOT learning)

Oh, I'm missing 10%. That was Overwatch. Maybe more like 30%. Because it turns out, you get to a position like this, and short of a company failure, you're set. I once had a project go maybe 3-4 weeks past when it was planned to be done, partly because I took an impromptu week-long trip in-country with a friend, telling no one. I could have taken PTO. We had unlimited PTO. And not fake-unlimited PTO that no one ever takes; real actual unlimited PTO. But that's a process, gotta fill out a form, tell people, and I was in my "fuck process" phase. Spend an hour a day in meetings from the hotel room hungover with a virtual background, respond to Slack messages as they come through. During a retrospective or something my manager commented that "product really screwed up planning how long this would take". I planned it! I gave the timeline! I screwed it up! Absolutely wild.

> I used to get challenged in some of my decisions, which I always appreciated since I could create better solutions. Nowadays people just accept whatever I say as the best way.

The best days of my role at this company were when we hired on a former senior engineer from Google, of all places. I don't know how we got him or why he joined on, except that he really wanted to try a (no-name, small) startup. It was the first time, ever, that I felt like there'd be someone else with the knowledge and confidence to challenge me. He did. Then he left a year later. Probably for the same reasons I eventually left (if you haven't caught on yet; the management were amazing people; and absolutely horrible managers).

> I worry that by not being challenged I will become complacent.

You don't have to become complacent on the tech. The thing I miss most about this role was; if there was some tech I wanted to play around with, I'd just do it. There was no one to question me. I'd deploy it all the way to production. I'd maintain it; grow it; mold it to whatever the business needed. You learn a lot doing that; probably more than being a cog in the Big Tech machine, though its a "different" but still extremely valuable kind of knowledge. A year later that tech is in job descriptions for the new hires and I'm helping them learn it.

But, what I found myself becoming complacent in was (you guessed it): work ethic. Everything was so easy, and the expectations were so low, that a typical day quickly became... 11 to noon, then an hour lunch, then an hour digesting that lunch, then maybe 2 to 4, then a friend just texted he's at the brewery across the street, lets roll out.

> What can I do to change things?

Leave. Everyone wants to be the smartest person in the room. Actually being the smartest person in the room: sucks. There are two ways to fix it; find a smarter person to bring into the room, or find another room. Hire, or Switch Jobs. Hiring the smartest person in the room is, probably, a predominate focus of someone, somewhere, in your company; as it is in every company, and they've failed. Who can blame them; hiring engineers SUCKS. So, find another room.

I've never made a better decision than leaving that role. In literally the first WEEK of onboarding at my new role, I learned five things about how they architect things, plan work, design systems, that induced the autonomic thought "shit let me write that down, this is fantastic and would work great in {SystemXFromOldCompany}", before having to realize I don't work there anymore lol (not to mention, you know, intellectual property, autonomic and such). When I put in two weeks, the old company offered to beat the offer at the new one by 10% (it was already an... 80% increase in TC). Nah, see ya.

That's the thing. You may be the most capable engineer at that company. You spend long enough in isolation there and you may just start convincing yourself you're god's gift from heaven. This isn't personal: you're not, because no one is. But, you're probably pretty good, and you're at a plateau because there's no diversity of thought in your environment. So, you gotta find it. Ten-x engineers are relative. The creator of homebrew couldn't get a job at google.

The alternate option is to find happiness where you're at (or, similarly; don't go big tech, find somewhere else you can be the smartest person in the room). It doesn't sound like that's a good solution for you, so I present it last, but it really is a fine road. There will always be many people smarter than you, and many people not-smarter. It sucks to be the smartest person in the room; but if you can go on impromptu trips with friends, spend time with your family, explore hobbies; hard to call that a bad hand. Work/life dissociation is actually healthy.

Re: Tell HN: The loneliness of a pretty good developer

#199

If you are a truly a 10X developer(TM pending) and this is not one of those copy-paste kids love these days, you could found your own company or consulting agency.With the huge competitive advantage you have (probably unique in the world ) : a 10-men-strength worth development capability that only have to maintain 1 family. If mere mortals have founded companies solo or in pairs, imagine what you could do with 5-10X…

It doesn't really matter how good or fast you are at developing, starting a company is a whole different ball game. The overhead of winning and retaining clients will very quickly ruin any 10x advantage you have.

Side note: Judging from the story points it looks like this is a 23x developer not 10x ;)

Re: Tell HN: The loneliness of a pretty good developer

#200
post #16

I think you're an above average developer working at a below average company. This could be the root of all your problems. Nothing is more frustrating than working with peers you know aren't carrying their weight. Do you want to be an engineering leader? This is what you are, regardless of your official title at your company. Engineering leaders are judged by how much better they make everyone else. You may hear the…

The pivot I have been debating is to become a Lead Development Manager with the express purpose of enabling everyone else, removing obstacles, creating better processes etc. My problem is that I love code much more than talking to people all day. I have been mentoring Jr Devs for a while now in an official capacity which helps. I like the idea of "make systemic changes to help your peers become more effective". So th…

Having been at times a manager and other times and IC, there are some great opportunities in each role, and it really depends on your organization.

If you haven't read it, "Staff Engineer" outlines some of the ways more experienced engineers continue to grow and provide value without becoming managers. I'd say the first half of it is worth a read to see if it sparks anything for you.

I will say that it gets lonelier as you go along either track. Reach out to peers if you have any. If not, try to reach out to folks outside of engineering.

It's a tricky path, and I wish you the best.

Post reply on HN