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"Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

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21–28 of 28 posts

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#21
post #20

My biggest problem with patent-overload isn't Apple v. Google v. Amazon, and lost innovation, it's Big Company v. Samll Company (particularly the physical engineering kind), with large legal departments versus smaller ones. E.g. "please top infringing on our bs ethernet connector patent"

One solution could be to give patent amnesty to small independent organizations - less than X million in revenue. That would at least have prevented LodSyS from going after small developers. The basis for this is recognition that a small entity would simply implode if they had to defend themselves in a court of law.

The problem is that the big companies would then infringe on the patent deliberately through a bunch of completely owned sub companies created solely for that purpose.

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#22
post #15

Patent trolls are a symptom of the problem that the patent system misidentifies the risk involved in invention. The concept is to mitigate the risk of innovating by adding reward. But the reward in the patent system is associated to the conceptualization of the idea which (mostly) carries no risk. The risk comes when you try to invest in that idea to bring it to market. So patent trolls can capture all the reward but…

Addressing the system, not single elements within it, is right on. If a company can legally profit doing something, how can you blame them for following the rules?

Saying trolls are killing innovation is like saying tall people are killing basketball. Once you write the rules, people will win the game by following those rules.

If you want shorter basketball players, change the rules that give them advantages. If you want more innovation, change the rules that stifle it. Blaming people for following the rules does little but polarize the debate.

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#23
post #22
post #15

Patent trolls are a symptom of the problem that the patent system misidentifies the risk involved in invention. The concept is to mitigate the risk of innovating by adding reward. But the reward in the patent system is associated to the conceptualization of the idea which (mostly) carries no risk. The risk comes when you try to invest in that idea to bring it to market. So patent trolls can capture all the reward but…

Addressing the system, not single elements within it, is right on. If a company can legally profit doing something, how can you blame them for following the rules? Saying trolls are killing innovation is like saying tall people are killing basketball. Once you write the rules, people will win the game by following those rules. If you want shorter basketball players, change the rules that give them advantages. If you…

Tall basketball players wouldn't extort money from a short basketball player, though, would they?

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#24
post #18
post #15

Patent trolls are a symptom of the problem that the patent system misidentifies the risk involved in invention. The concept is to mitigate the risk of innovating by adding reward. But the reward in the patent system is associated to the conceptualization of the idea which (mostly) carries no risk. The risk comes when you try to invest in that idea to bring it to market. So patent trolls can capture all the reward but…

Even that has issues. Say you invent X and start selling it locally. You're making a few $100k p/m and growing fast. The global market could be in the billions but your planning on growing one town at a time. Meanwhile, another company with resources uses your invention and decides to grow 10 cities at a time. They can be 10X bigger than you very fast. They're eating your lunch, even if you'd only have made a fractio…

"patents aren't supposed to be for inventors, they're supposed to be for society, to help stuff get invented and produced. Society benefits more from the larger company."

It's both.

The original vision for the patent system, as laid out in the Constitution, was "...to promote the progress of science and useful arts [thereby benefitting society as a whole], by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their writings and discoveries."

The end-goal is, as you've stated, the benefit of society as effeced by innovation and discovery. An important implication in that goal is that society does not benefit, and maybe even hurts, from stagnation in the arts and sciences. The founders theorized that a society free from any patents or protections would lead to stagnation, because there would be no financial benefit to the inventors, and hence, fewer would get into the innovations game in the first place. In order for society to benefit from innovation, being an inventor needs to have some serious upside, so that more inventors keep inventing.

There's nothing in the letter or spirit of the US patent system that claims the "larger company" or the "smaller company" in your example is better for society. Indeed, the patent system is mainly concerned with the startup/inventor at its seed stage. Where the startup or inventor goes from there is left open to the dynamics of the marketplace.

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#25
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the legal system is broken instead?

Yes. Like in most of Europe, whoever looses the case should have to pay BOTH sides legal fees.

That is just as easy to use for extortion. Suppose we have a dispute over who owes who $1000. You hire a $10000 lawyer. I hire a $100000 lawyer. Now although we both get the same ($1000) if we win, you stand to lose more than I do. So if we both have even chances of winning I can use that to pressure you to drop your case.

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#26
The only thing keeping the trolls slightly at bay (such as it is) is that they are forced to do their own prosecution. I think its only a matter of time until the IP lobby wises up and start agitating to pass laws that make patent violations a criminal matter such as they have done with other forms of intellectual property, i.e. trademarks, etc.

Over the years, many of the checks and balances have been eroded and much of modern IP law is a one-sided scam that doesn't work in favour of the market, competition or society as a whole.

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#27
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Like in most of Europe, whoever looses the case should have to pay BOTH sides legal fees.

That is just as easy to use for extortion. Suppose we have a dispute over who owes who $1000. You hire a $10000 lawyer. I hire a $100000 lawyer. Now although we both get the same ($1000) if we win, you stand to lose more than I do. So if we both have even chances of winning I can use that to pressure you to drop your case.

Hopefully, "Courts will often reduce attorney’s fee awards they find to be unreasonable and excessive".

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even that has issues. Say you invent X and start selling it locally. You're making a few $100k p/m and growing fast. The global market could be in the billions but your planning on growing one town at a time. Meanwhile, another company with resources uses your invention and decides to grow 10 cities at a time. They can be 10X bigger than you very fast. They're eating your lunch, even if you'd only have made a fractio…

"patents aren't supposed to be for inventors, they're supposed to be for society, to help stuff get invented and produced. Society benefits more from the larger company." It's both. The original vision for the patent system, as laid out in the Constitution, was "...to promote the progress of science and useful arts [thereby benefitting society as a whole], by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the ex…

The section you quoted only supports the claim that patents are for society - all benefits to the creators are merely to promote the progress of science, etc...

They merely gave congress the power to do this, like declaring war, but they didn't mandate it.

Patents are broken. Fundamentally and in this implementation. We could reward those who helps society, such as inventors (regardless of who builds the invention) and the engineer who creatively gets the price down to where everyone can have one, and the manager who wrangled thousands of people to make something great, all without granting a single monopoly.

Simply divide the cost of the patent office (ignore the money it collects because it's a tax on industry), and give it to the people who've made things we like/need. For more money, tax industry equivalently to the average current patent litigation burden and give that to the innovators as well. It's no less fair than what we do now, at its worst, and its upsides are tremendous.

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