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Why Google is so unbearable, and how to fix it

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Re: Why Google is so unbearable, and how to fix it

#201

Post by bkobren »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #169
baxuz wrote: post #77

It's not a Google problem, it's a web problem. Everything is based around SEO spam. If someone has a website, and they're producing content, their point is to monetize the browsing of the website itself, or promote their main product via the website. This incentivizes a certain kind of content, which is marketing content. These days I'm back to searching social networks like Reddit or Hacker News for (at least somewh…

The other side of the coin is that users are so used to the "free" model (read: ad model) that they refuse to pay for anything directly. Look at youtube. They show ads and there is a non-stop stream of complaints about how long/bad/annoying they are. They offer a paid subscription to remove all ads and people laugh at the audacity youtube has to ask for money. Users DO NOT want to see/watch ads. Users DO NOT want to…

I wouldn't be so sure, agree that there is an enormous challenge to convince people to pay for something they think they are getting for free, even when it's really not free ie paying for it with time, attention, privacy.

But create enough value, provide truly differentiated and unique experiences that ad-supported models can't, include privacy etc and there is a case to be made that over time a sizable enough segment will pay for that value that you can have a sustainable business.

That is certainly our bet at Neeva, and so far we have seen a lot of growth, interest and folks opting for the premium (paid version) over the basic. Even without a full push to encouraging the premium.

Re: Why Google is so unbearable, and how to fix it

#202

Post by dreamcompiler »

BurningFrog wrote: post #179
mrweasel wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are only two choices. Either Google are no longer interested in finding the best answers to your queries. Or as you point out: They don't care, that is no longer what they do. I cannot imagine it being easy, but I find it hard to believe that Google aren't able to weed out the worst offenders. For a large number of queries the results are all SEO spam. Try searching for anything related to health and get a usef…

My thought is that the Web has adapted to Search. When Google started, the web was honest and innocent. People linked to the pages they liked, and Google could crowd source those links and raise up the most popular pages. Now most of the web is lies meant to confuse search engines. Figuring out what pages are good is no longer a feasible task for software.

> Figuring out what pages are good is no longer a feasible task for software.

Of course it is. It shouldn't be at all difficult to train a large natural language AI model on SEO spam pages. But nobody will do it unless they can figure out a business model that makes it pay.

Or a non-profit organization is formed to do search spidering for the benefit of the whole world, much like Wikipedia or PBS.

Re: Why Google is so unbearable, and how to fix it

#203

Post by aporetics »

titzer wrote: post #176
baggachipz wrote: post #13

Google is so unbearable because they are no longer interested in you finding the answer to your query; they're interested in selling your query and its context to the highest bidder. That conflict of interest manifests in what Google has become.

It is sad because I spent nearly 10 years at Google and nearly all the people I met were well-meaning, seemingly harmless, engineering-oriented, and data-driven. But the configuration of people that makes up the superorganism that is Google nowadays is driven by both local incentives and a broad top incentive to grow. Scale to more computation, more storage, more bandwidth, and with lower overhead--morally, those are…

> well-meaning, seemingly harmless, engineering-oriented, and data-driven

At some point I really hope that we can all recognize that “seemingly harmless”, “engineering-oriented”, and “data-driven” are not virtues.

Re: Why Google is so unbearable, and how to fix it

#204

Post by khaledh »

deelly wrote: post #184
baxuz wrote: post #77

It's not a Google problem, it's a web problem. Everything is based around SEO spam. If someone has a website, and they're producing content, their point is to monetize the browsing of the website itself, or promote their main product via the website. This incentivizes a certain kind of content, which is marketing content. These days I'm back to searching social networks like Reddit or Hacker News for (at least somewh…

You right, but Google at least can try to fix it. For example: allow users to hide sites from search results, allow users to downrank sites in search results, etc. etc.

Then it's going to be gamed, again. This time by businesses who would love to drown their competitors search results, or malicious players who want to attack an entity's web presence.

Re: Why Google is so unbearable, and how to fix it

#205

Post by andyjohnson0 »

I've given up on google for search and I'm not going back. I've been beta-testing kagi search [1] for the last couple of months and it does 95% of what I need - accurate and low-distraction and it doesn't try to sell me stuff or sell me to anyone. They're about to go into public beta and announce their pricing, and I'm pretty sure I'm in.

[1] kagi.com

Re: Why Google is so unbearable, and how to fix it

#206

Post by qgin »

drstewart wrote: post #181
qgin wrote: post #18

Just add “Reddit” to the search string Reddit is what the internet used to be back when it was useful.

Reddit has very strong biases and its own bubbles as well. Don't expect to be exposed to a wide variety of viewpoints there, but what appeals to a very narrow demographic (18-30 year old low-income white progressive American males)

True, but at least it’s content written humans in good faith and not just SEO bait.

Re: Why Google is so unbearable, and how to fix it

#207

Post by grumple »

rglullis wrote: post #54
lupire wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who do you expect will provide that content for you, for free?

The millions of people that write and produce content without being tied to this Protestant mentality that something is only worth doing if it is profitable. In fact, I'd wager that if we had a way to filter for content that is written without the goal of being monetized, we'd have a better web and us consumers would be more inclined to reward and give back to the creators generously.

I thought this was an interesting topic, so I read a bit on Protestantism and Protestant work ethic and what makes things worth doing. [1, 2] The interpretation that something is only worth doing if profitable seems somewhat uncharitable but does seem to be possibly rooted in truth.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism#Protestant_cultu...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

Re: Why Google is so unbearable, and how to fix it

#208

Post by freediver »

DocTomoe wrote: post #186
freediver wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right. And the actual number is lot smaller. We just need 0.001% of Google users to be sustainable with the current team size. (or about 50,000 users out of 4.3B Google users). And if you find 50k users, you will find 100k. First 5k is tricky! (Kagi founder here)

Hi! I'm a Kagi private beta tester and love it. Will become a paying customer. One question: I do remember a page that told me how much I searched and what that would mean once Kagi becomes a paid service. I can't find that info anymore. In light of the mail us Kagi users got today, does that mean that it's going to be a flat rate for starters?

Yes that is what we intend to try ($10/mo flat fee for unlimited). Most users told us they are more comfortable with this model vs pay-per-use which is why we removed the "Consumption" page as is not relevant in this model.

We do not yet know if the flat fee will be viable for the company and we hope to learn that very soon.

Re: Why Google is so unbearable, and how to fix it

#209

Post by scroot »

Beltiras wrote: post #33
baggachipz wrote: post #13

Google is so unbearable because they are no longer interested in you finding the answer to your query; they're interested in selling your query and its context to the highest bidder. That conflict of interest manifests in what Google has become.

I agree. What the search space needs is a different business model. I have no idea what it could be. I'm quite sure a subscription model would fail. Micropayments have not taken off. How can we fund meaningful search divorced from an ad business?

Why does web search need to have a business model at all? Why can't we just provide the Library of Congress funding to run something like it? Google got its start as a library project, after all, and it's the natural place for such a service.
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