Steve Jobs left designer Jony Ive more power than anyone at Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Jobs left designer Jony Ive more power than anyone at Apple

#91

Post by chrislomax » Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 6:23 PM UTC

nobody31415 wrote: post #36

chrislomax wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think it's impossible to replicate what Apple have done. It's not just one thing that has caused a change but a series of changes starting when they introduced the iMac. Apple is more of a "love mark" than a technology company. Back in 95, Microsoft was a love mark, people loved it when a new version of windows came out, now people dread it. People started looking for an alternative and Apple was there,…

You could take everything you just said and apply it to Sony in 1980. Then their founder, Akio Morita, retired with poor health and they diversified into lots of sensible business decisions about owning studios Then some little computer company in California moved in on their territory and began making beautiful, simple, well made upmarket products.

Might I just add, I am not your typical fan boy for Apple. Quite the opposite actually. I am a Microsoft geek at heart, learnt basic when I was 13 and loved them since. They can do minimal wrong in my eyes (except for windows ME).

I appreciate Apple in a completely different way, I think how they have created their following in nothing short of amazing. The spot a market potential and they make it work, really well.

The iPod worked really well but it was really the iPhone that did it for them, they brought Apple to the absolute masses. I am still not 100% sure if the iTunes store was a fluke, I don't think it was on the first iPhone. If it was planned in it's entirety then hats off to Steve.

Look at the market share now, Microsoft should be scared. I don't think Microsoft has ramped up it's game much either, Ballmer is a bit of a joke so I'm going to find it hard to take him seriously but I think I will always be Microsoft at heart.

Re: Steve Jobs left designer Jony Ive more power than anyone at Apple

#92

Post by sirn » Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 6:23 PM UTC

psawaya wrote: post #69

I think it's interesting that Jony Ive came to Apple before Steve returned. Jobs didn't have to recruit him, and he fit perfectly into what Apple became.

'I often joke that my tombstone will say, "The Guy Who Hired Jonathan Ive",'

- Robert Brunner, Apple's former Chief of Industrial Design

Re: Steve Jobs left designer Jony Ive more power than anyone at Apple

#93

Post by rayiner » Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 6:37 PM UTC

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #68

swombat wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between not promoting someone from lead code monkey, and not promoting someone from head of industrial design at Apple. The latter is a valid landing point for the rest of your life.

We all make that judgment individually. We all have different aspirations. You can't hold someone back because theyre too good at their job. You can let them stay where they are, if that's what they want. Otherwise you have to eventually make the tough decision to either promote your talent, or let them go.

On the contrary, I think it's a management innovation that tech companies have figured out how to keep good technical people in their areas of core competency by giving them the things they would really want out of a promotion, whether that be compensation, autonomy, etc.

The article notes that Ive is worth $128 million and has tremendous autonomy within the company. I.e. he gets compensated extremely well and has a ton of power but still gets to do the work he is obviously very good at. Why would he want to become CEO where he'd spend all his time answering to shareholders and analysts? Just to move up one step on the org chart?

Where you really get the promotion problem is when your corporate structure is too inflexible to give adequate compensation and authority to your best technical people. That does not seem to be a problem here.

Re: Steve Jobs left designer Jony Ive more power than anyone at Apple

#94

Post by sylvinus » Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 6:39 PM UTC

psawaya wrote: post #69

I think it's interesting that Jony Ive came to Apple before Steve returned. Jobs didn't have to recruit him, and he fit perfectly into what Apple became.

He didn't recruit him but he got him out of the closet where he was hidden and put him in charge of the design team

Re: Steve Jobs left designer Jony Ive more power than anyone at Apple

#95

Post by bomatson » Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 6:42 PM UTC

AllenKids wrote: post #25

technoslut wrote: post #7

Interestingly enough, there is a quote from the Jobs book, from Ive, that was tweeted by Bianca Bosker, who works at the Huffington Post: https://twitter.com/bbosker/status/127357233632788480 "Jony Ive:'I pay maniacal attention to where an idea comes from...so it hurts when [Jobs] takes credit for one of my designs'" As much as Jobs considered Ive a 'spiritual partner' there was still a power play that existed betwee…

Well then next time Apple introduces a new design, he better hauls his ass up on the stage to receive the applauds. I personally would love that.

I second that notion, creative talent of this magnitude needs to be recognized more often!

Re: Steve Jobs left designer Jony Ive more power than anyone at Apple

#96

Post by msbarnett » Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 6:43 PM UTC

MarkMc wrote: post #63

Well, not THAT much power: 'Ive wants to spend more time in the UK where he wants his sons to go to school, the Times claims, but the Apple board has refused to support his relocation. The story quotes a family friend as saying that "they have told him in no uncertain terms that if he headed back to England he would not be able to sustain his position with them".' From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/pda/2011/f…

That's from back in February, so even if it were true it says nothing about how much power Ive has post Jobs, and there's little reason to believe it's true, since it was heavily denied by even its claimed sources when other publications talked to them subsequently.

Re: Steve Jobs left designer Jony Ive more power than anyone at Apple

#97

Post by ellyagg » Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 6:46 PM UTC

azulum wrote: post #60

ArbitraryLimits wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't have to take credit for any particular designs, he just took credit for all the designs because of his unofficial role as "taste maker." That's way harder to refute. It's like giving Chuck Norris credit for all living things because he's allowed them to live.

chuck norris looked at this analogy…and it just stared back. EDIT: there are a lot of interesting people on HN, but there are a lot of humorless people too. enjoy your spectrum disorder.

It's not that, it's just that we as a community are keenly afraid of HN's comments section turning into reddit's. Reddit's threads are often clever and sometimes hilarious, but that crap has choked off most everything else. That's not what this forum is about. If we don't remain hyper-vigilant, it will creep in while we aren't looking. Comments that consist solely of a joke will almost always be voted down here.

Re: Steve Jobs left designer Jony Ive more power than anyone at Apple

#98

Post by zach » Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 6:46 PM UTC

AllenKids wrote: post #89

gallamine wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, John Lasseter defends Cars 2: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/movies/john-lasseter-of-pi... Apparently the "critics" were far harsher than audiences.

Of course, Cars 2 is the low point in Pixar's streak but overall still able to capture an audience not to mention tons of toys sold. I understand Lasseter's point and given his fixation over the concept I'll just accept the fact it is a big deal to him personally just as I accept Jobs' enthusiasm about getting Beatles in the iTMS.

I think that's a very apt comparison. It's hard to overestimate how deeply personal Cars and Cars 2 are to John, but it's also hard to overstate how tricky they were to pull off.

Sure, you can criticize Cars 2 for having a story that didn't hit the bullseye. Totally fair, by Pixar's own "story, story, story" standards. But don't think the Pixar Brain Trust didn't do so first (as mentioned in the article, things had indeed gone wrong) or that they didn't do heroic acts to make things work. Ultimately it's an artistic process within a movie studio and you sometimes have to put things into production and trust that you can work out the problems. Pixar will bend everything out of shape to delay that point but it still happens. It's the fact that Pixar had done so well rescuing movies from a burning story that makes the rest of us forget that sometimes.

Still, where Cars and Cars 2 started from and how well the stories they had were executed — I think those things are hard to criticize. These movies are love letters to the automotive culture that came of age as John did, and they are both put on the screen with a huge amount of artistry, character, cleverness and humor.

Re: Steve Jobs left designer Jony Ive more power than anyone at Apple

#99

Post by ludwigvan » Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 6:50 PM UTC

george_morgan wrote: post #70

nknight wrote: post #44

Great, but... Ive only does industrial design, as far as I know. The other side of the coin is the software, and if that declines, Ive's going to be creating very well-designed paperweights. So who does Apple's software design?

I’ve also wondered this. iOS and Mac OS both have a penchant for faux-realism and pastiche which always seems strangely incongruous with the austere industrial design. It’s a trend that seems to be getting stronger, just look to the most recent version of iCal for example. Apple’s current industrial design patterns seem to have a solid foundation in quite traditional modernist values, such as ‘truth to materials’, so…

Interesting point. There were some rumors that surfaced last week that Ive only met Forestall in the presence of Tim Cook, and did not talk to him otherwise. Not very probable, but still too bad if that is so.

Re: Steve Jobs left designer Jony Ive more power than anyone at Apple

#100

Post by r00fus » Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 6:51 PM UTC

pak wrote: post #28

fdb wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard about the Peter Principle? From Wikipedia: "in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence", meaning that employees tend to be promoted until they reach a position at which they cannot work competently. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle Knowing what somebody is not good at is almost as essential as knowing what people are good at. I guess both Ive and Apple know thi…

If you believe in the Peter Principle, you might be interested in the Gervais Principle ( http://www.ribbonfarm.com/the-gervais-principle/ ) which uses characters from The Office to wax philosophical about organizational structure. At the very least, the first part is worth a read. It diverges from the Peter Principle in a number of thought-provoking ways.

Highly entertaining (and insightful), thanks.