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Steve Yegge: Follow Up to His Accidentally Public Rant

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Re: Steve Yegge: Follow Up to His Accidentally Public Rant

#121

Post by twoodfin »

Jun8 wrote: post #103

I hate fear-driven cultures where presentations/meetings/casual talk with the CEO are treated as a gladiator match. In addition to Bezos, of course Jobs and (from what I read) Gates created such cultures. Another interesting, lesser known example was Col. Robert R.MacCormick, the editor for the Chicago Tribune for long years. He was described as "remote, coldly aloof, ruthless aristocrat, living in lonely magnificenc…

I don't think all the "gladitorial"-style preparation is necessarily fear-driven. To a great extent it's an acknowledgement that the CEO's time and attention is a valuable, limited resource and should be treated accordingly.

Re: Steve Yegge: Follow Up to His Accidentally Public Rant

#122

Post by dualboot »

cavalcade wrote: post #6

Is it me or does this read like a big ass-kissing of Bezos after he tore him apart in the accidentally leaked memo? Not saying it isnt true but...

I don't know if I would describe the previous entry as "tearing him apart" because at the end of the day Bezos has still accomplished far more than just about anyone else we're likely to meet.

No one is perfect and it is really our ability to play to our strengths and our weaknesses that defines our ability to succeed in life.

Re: Steve Yegge: Follow Up to His Accidentally Public Rant

#123

Post by srdev »

Jun8 wrote: post #103

I hate fear-driven cultures where presentations/meetings/casual talk with the CEO are treated as a gladiator match. In addition to Bezos, of course Jobs and (from what I read) Gates created such cultures. Another interesting, lesser known example was Col. Robert R.MacCormick, the editor for the Chicago Tribune for long years. He was described as "remote, coldly aloof, ruthless aristocrat, living in lonely magnificenc…

My observation is that a fear-driven culture is often not intentional. They usually stem from a culture where cutting the bullshit and getting to the point is encouraged. Most people are used to a culture where niceties are important, and when they are put in front of a person that cares about results more than niceties, they can misinterpret that behavior for aggressiveness. In turn, the people who misinterpret that behavior take their cues from it, and turn it into actual aggressiveness, in sort-of a cultural game of telephone.

Re: Steve Yegge: Follow Up to His Accidentally Public Rant

#124

Post by yonran »

jisaacstone wrote: post #106
edw519 wrote: post #99

Hey Steve, lots of Hacker News readers are just as smart as Jeff Bezos. Some of us may even be smarter. You may remove every third paragraph for him, but you can remove every third word for us and we can fill in the rest with our giant brains. Here goes: Last week accidentally posted internal rant service platforms my public account. It somehow viral, which nothing short stupefying given it was massive Wall Text. The…

That was surprisingly legible! And I don't think it is because of my 'giant brain', considering how long it took me to understand Taylor Series in university.

It just reads like an annoying Google Voice transcript. Probably bears no resemblance to the presentation to Bezos.

Re: Steve Yegge: Follow Up to His Accidentally Public Rant

#125

Post by drzaiusapelord »

srdev wrote: post #123
Jun8 wrote: post #103

I hate fear-driven cultures where presentations/meetings/casual talk with the CEO are treated as a gladiator match. In addition to Bezos, of course Jobs and (from what I read) Gates created such cultures. Another interesting, lesser known example was Col. Robert R.MacCormick, the editor for the Chicago Tribune for long years. He was described as "remote, coldly aloof, ruthless aristocrat, living in lonely magnificenc…

My observation is that a fear-driven culture is often not intentional. They usually stem from a culture where cutting the bullshit and getting to the point is encouraged. Most people are used to a culture where niceties are important, and when they are put in front of a person that cares about results more than niceties, they can misinterpret that behavior for aggressiveness. In turn, the people who misinterpret that…

> They usually stem from a culture where cutting the bullshit and getting to the point is encouraged.

My observation is the opposite. The incompetent use fear and anger. The competent don't need to resort to the lizard part of their brain to communicate with their subordinates.

Imagine if this guy worked at Apple. He'd be fired and blacklisted. Some companies just have better cultures than others. Sorry I just don't buy the whole "ubermen should piss on everyone else because they are better than everyone and any show of manners is a show of weakness!!" Ayn Rand-fest.

While I undestand the importance of good work and brevity and being challenged, I suggest you actually read about what its like working with characters like Steve Jobs. Phrases like "What the fuck is wrong with you, moron?" are casually tossed around. That's not executive bullshit cutting, that's petty personal and childish attacks.

Re: Steve Yegge: Follow Up to His Accidentally Public Rant

#126

Post by mtts »

ot wrote: post #15

His description of presentations to Bezos reminds the infamous BillG reviews http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html

Me too. Except that in Joel's piece Bill G seemed to ask an entirely relevant question and in Steve Yegge's piece Bezos seemed to ask about something quite secondary.

Like Bezos has an arsenal of nasty questions up his sleeve and BillG actually knows what the f he's talking about.

Re: Steve Yegge: Follow Up to His Accidentally Public Rant

#127

Post by srdev »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #125
srdev wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My observation is that a fear-driven culture is often not intentional. They usually stem from a culture where cutting the bullshit and getting to the point is encouraged. Most people are used to a culture where niceties are important, and when they are put in front of a person that cares about results more than niceties, they can misinterpret that behavior for aggressiveness. In turn, the people who misinterpret that…

> They usually stem from a culture where cutting the bullshit and getting to the point is encouraged. My observation is the opposite. The incompetent use fear and anger. The competent don't need to resort to the lizard part of their brain to communicate with their subordinates. Imagine if this guy worked at Apple. He'd be fired and blacklisted. Some companies just have better cultures than others. Sorry I just don't…

I think there's a balance. One should spend effort on showing manner and being considerate of peoples' feelings. At the same time, sometimes these sorts of things can become pathological to the point where you spend more time making people feel good rather than getting things done.

As an example, I'm thinking of meetings where everyone speaks up to be heard whether or not they have something valuable to say. Often times, its warranted to simply say "Let's stay on-topic," or "Let's off-line that discussion." Peoples' feelings will be hurt by this, but its necessary to stay productive. Likewise, if someone has an uber-urgent task for me to accomplish that isn't really urgent, I'll tell politely but firmly tell them that I don't have the time and that they should put it in my back-log. This sometimes results in hurt feelings, but its necessary to keep focused.

Regardless, that's a digression from my main point, which is that I don't think the fear-based culture is always intentional. Your experiences don't reflect mine, which is fine, and I concede that incompetent may use fear and anger to keep people in line. I've simply not worked in those sorts of organizations before.

Re: Steve Yegge: Follow Up to His Accidentally Public Rant

#128

Post by ctdonath »

The issue of "so smart he needs a challenge so leave something for him to find" may overlap with "so narcissistic he needs something to smack you with so make a deliberate 'mistake' for him to find". I've found this quite effective; some people just need to find _something_ wrong with your idea/presentation/execution, so when they're going to review it, don't polish it to perfection - leave an error somewhere; you know what the mistake is, you know what the solution is, you'll take care of it right after it's noticed, and you'll give him _something_ to criticize so he doesn't have to invent some off-the-wall delusion which you must now accommodate.

I'm not equating smart with narcissistic, just noting similar behavior with similar ways to mitigate damage vectors.

Re: Steve Yegge: Follow Up to His Accidentally Public Rant

#129

Post by mmahemoff »

edw519 wrote: post #99

Hey Steve, lots of Hacker News readers are just as smart as Jeff Bezos. Some of us may even be smarter. You may remove every third paragraph for him, but you can remove every third word for us and we can fill in the rest with our giant brains. Here goes: Last week accidentally posted internal rant service platforms my public account. It somehow viral, which nothing short stupefying given it was massive Wall Text. The…

steve-yegge-witheverythirdparagraphremoved.blogspot.com is still available.
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