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In search of organic software

pketh.org

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Re: In search of organic software

#31

Post by polote »

jabo wrote: post #26
polote wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is clearly not the enterprise playbook. The enterprise playbook is to sell on slides, iterate with a few customers and go after even bigger customers. Start small and trying to go upmarket is the normal playbook for a b2b smb company that is not growing anymore. Managing enterprise customers is easier than managing thousands or small companies. And it also create a natural barrier to entry

> The enterprise playbook is to sell on slides, iterate with a few customers and go after even bigger customers. I would call this product discovery and development with early adopters, something I hope every startup is doing. I've also seen this be called a Lighthouse program. > Managing enterprise customers is easier than managing thousands or small companies. And it also create a natural barrier to entry I definit…

The other way to look at it, is that if the company starts to give up a product-first market to an enterprise market it is because they are loosing or struggling to keep their customers in their first market and so they dont have the best product.

So as a customer if you want the best product then you have to switch

Re: In search of organic software

#32

Post by pketh »

theIntuitionist wrote: post #27

I think “organic” is prob the wrong word. It’s already a rather tortured word, even in just the farming world where it’s legislated. My brother, a small organic farmer with about 5 acres really groaned recently when telling me that hydroponic veggies can be labeled organic. And when I see it on non-far products (like salt, which is a real example that will make any nerd’s hair stand on end), it just feels like intent…

I was thinking about that while coming up with the term. IRL 'organic' food labelling has a lot of real problems, some bordering on scam. Despite that, shoppers in a grocery store have generally the same overall idea of what organic food is Supposed to be. That ideal/supposed state is what I wanted to build off from to have a term that speaks to regular people.

It's definitely not a perfect parallel in lots of ways. That said, I think this may be one of those times where the perfect (e.g. requiring the technically perfect word) may be the enemy of the good (of communicating important consumer information to people.)

To that end, I tried to keep the criteria of 'organic software' very short and free of exceptions.

Re: In search of organic software

#33

Post by pketh »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #24

I write "organic" software. In today's software industry, people not only don't care about Quality; they are actively hostile towards it. It almost seems to be a race to the bottom. If it isn't scaled into millions of users, billions of dollars, or gigantic numbers of GH stars, then it's not worth anything, and anyone that works in a way that treats software development as a craft, is treated in a rather shabby fashi…

> people not only don't care about Quality; they are actively hostile towards it. It almost seems to be a race to the bottom.

I think this largely depends on industry and platform.

e.g. quality isn't how enterprise software is sold and is therefore not an appreciated trait.

e.g.2. selling quality software on the iOS app store is like trying to sell a ferrari in a literal dollar store. It's going to be an uphill battle.

Re: In search of organic software

#34

Post by pketh »

eternityforest wrote: post #30

I usually treat anything that isn't open source, or a product that makes multiple billions of dollars and is totally entrenched in industry, as basically disposable. I will use it, especially if it's free/youretheproductware, if it's convenient, but I don't want to build anything on top of it. I don't want to create anything with it that can't be ported elsewhere. With open source it's a lot more comfortable to say "…

that's understandable, and also a harbinger of a future I'd like to help prevent. There's lots of great commercial software that's worth paying for and that isn't made by megacorps

Re: In search of organic software

#35

Post by pketh »

russellallen wrote: post #29
pketh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks I never know how much to self promote on HN :) if anyone else is looking for the mind-mapping software I build, it's at https://kinopio.club and there's no sign up required to use it

It's great. The movable boxes and links between them remind me a lot of the Self programming language which I love, and the way the boxes wiggle when you pick them up is just genius.

Thanks, I appreciate that :D

Re: In search of organic software

#36

Post by AussieWog93 »

hmmdar wrote: post #28
theIntuitionist wrote: post #27

I think “organic” is prob the wrong word. It’s already a rather tortured word, even in just the farming world where it’s legislated. My brother, a small organic farmer with about 5 acres really groaned recently when telling me that hydroponic veggies can be labeled organic. And when I see it on non-far products (like salt, which is a real example that will make any nerd’s hair stand on end), it just feels like intent…

I recently had a similar experience. I purchased a bag of citric acid, and it was boldly labeled as non-GMO and "approved for use with organic food".

Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/641/

Re: In search of organic software

#37

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

pketh wrote: post #33
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #24

I write "organic" software. In today's software industry, people not only don't care about Quality; they are actively hostile towards it. It almost seems to be a race to the bottom. If it isn't scaled into millions of users, billions of dollars, or gigantic numbers of GH stars, then it's not worth anything, and anyone that works in a way that treats software development as a craft, is treated in a rather shabby fashi…

> people not only don't care about Quality; they are actively hostile towards it. It almost seems to be a race to the bottom. I think this largely depends on industry and platform. e.g. quality isn't how enterprise software is sold and is therefore not an appreciated trait. e.g.2. selling quality software on the iOS app store is like trying to sell a ferrari in a literal dollar store. It's going to be an uphill battl…

> e.g.2. selling quality software on the iOS app store is like trying to sell a ferrari in a literal dollar store. It's going to be an uphill battle.

That's a problem. The iOS App Store was initially founded as a "dollar store," but has become more and more expensive, over the years. I think that most of the apps that I've paid for, are in the $10-$40 range. A couple are ongoing in-app "subscriptions."

The only non-free app that I sell, is a countdown timer. I ask $0.99 for it, in the vain hope that, one day, I might recoup the localization costs (about $1,300), but I don't especially care, whether or not I ever do. I certainly couldn't ask for more, with a straight face. I'll be releasing a total rewrite of it in a few days, when I get back the localization files.

Most of what I do is free, and I've yanked about 20 apps off the store, when they get "long in the tooth."

Re: In search of organic software

#38

Post by theIntuitionist »

pketh wrote: post #32
theIntuitionist wrote: post #27

I think “organic” is prob the wrong word. It’s already a rather tortured word, even in just the farming world where it’s legislated. My brother, a small organic farmer with about 5 acres really groaned recently when telling me that hydroponic veggies can be labeled organic. And when I see it on non-far products (like salt, which is a real example that will make any nerd’s hair stand on end), it just feels like intent…

I was thinking about that while coming up with the term. IRL 'organic' food labelling has a lot of real problems, some bordering on scam. Despite that, shoppers in a grocery store have generally the same overall idea of what organic food is Supposed to be. That ideal/supposed state is what I wanted to build off from to have a term that speaks to regular people. It's definitely not a perfect parallel in lots of ways.…

I'm down for any label that sticks on this concept. I would love for this idea to be part of the larger conversation around building software and communities on line. Thanks for the reply and article!

Re: In search of organic software

#39

Post by tconfrey »

theIntuitionist wrote: post #38
pketh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about that while coming up with the term. IRL 'organic' food labelling has a lot of real problems, some bordering on scam. Despite that, shoppers in a grocery store have generally the same overall idea of what organic food is Supposed to be. That ideal/supposed state is what I wanted to build off from to have a term that speaks to regular people. It's definitely not a perfect parallel in lots of ways.…

I'm down for any label that sticks on this concept. I would love for this idea to be part of the larger conversation around building software and communities on line. Thanks for the reply and article!

'Sustainable' maybe?

Re: In search of organic software

#40

Post by alar44 »

jabo wrote: post #5

One trait I’ve seen in “non-organic” software is the use of the Enterprise SaaS playbook. Start bottoms up, give away free or low/no margin services, gain adoption, capture the market, then with the pressure to grow, they start moving upmarket, go after 100K+ deals and raise prices, and eventually price out / fire vast chunks of their early adopters. Been personally bit by this a few times, so these days I tend to ve…

That's... just how you run a sustainable business. As you grow, you simply can't support the small guys with their legacy shit and corner cases. Every service business does this. You have to.
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