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Web3 is expensive P2P

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Re: Web3 is expensive P2P

#81
post #17

What is the value proposition of web3 to the user? JS web apps offloaded the compute and memory onto the browser/client, web3 to offload storage costs onto the user. You will up pay for every click. web3 and metaverse feels so dystopian. but the young generations that were raised by tiktok will probably accept it.

web3 is not "pay for every click." value prop is disintermediation and decentralization. like purchasing a game asset, and not having it tied only to your iOS or Steam account.

In practice it effectively is.

Without the Google, Facebook, and Twitters of the world pouring substantial resources into hosting and powering those platforms a decentralized approach needs to cover costs somehow.

Of course they monetize the users and their content and make a pretty penny while doing so (except for Twitter).

The centralization of these big tech companies also brings efficiency, optimization, and economies of scale to this infrastructure that decentralized blockchains inherently don’t have. There’s also the issue of much of the Web3 infrastructure being hosted on $BIGCLOUD because lots of data and usage at scale is really hard. Piñata just uses S3 and charges a hefty markup on top of it (as one example). S3 is $0.03/GB at the lowest usage. Piñata is always $0.15.

I’m not saying the decentralized promise of Web3 is impossible. It’s just a bigger question of the vast majority of users who have already demonstrated they’re fine with being monetized by the big tech companies as long as their use is free/extremely low cost paying at least 5X of the fundamental underlying costs. That’s not even getting to content creators that have utilizes these free platforms to already generate significant income for themselves.

The HN crowd has a much better understanding and resistance to big tech and what they do to offer free products that monetize the user. The vast majority of the billions of users on these platforms have demonstrated that they do not care.

Re: Web3 is expensive P2P

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to provably prevent Sybil attacks are CAs ( https://www.freehaven.net/anonbib/cache/sybil.pdf ) This is why almost all P2P and DHT papers assumed existence of a CA in their system model eg. Castro’s secure routing etc. P.S. PoS protocols are also Sybil resistance mechanisms. Look into Tendermint and compare it with, say, PBFT.

Not true. > This paper shows that the situation with BFT CRDTs is very different from BFT consensus: it is possible to guarantee the standard CRDT consistency properties even in systems in which arbitrarily many nodes are Byzantine, e.g. where the Byzantine nodes outnumber the correct nodes. This makes the algorithms immune to Sybil attacks, allowing them to be deployed in open P2P systems that anybody can join, with…

I’m not saying his paper is wrong or not up to the workshop quality. But he’s saying something against an easy-to-prove impossibility theorem in a seriously sloppy/hand-wavy way. I trust Doceur and the entire early 2000s literature more than his paper. But who knows, I might be wrong.

P.S. Also commented about the paper here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30561786

Re: Web3 is expensive P2P

#83

What is the value proposition of web3 to the user? JS web apps offloaded the compute and memory onto the browser/client, web3 to offload storage costs onto the user. You will up pay for every click. web3 and metaverse feels so dystopian. but the young generations that were raised by tiktok will probably accept it.

Honest question: Is there something specific about TikTok technology/usage pattern paving the way for distopy acceptance or it's just the same concept of facebook/instagram/Twitter but with a younger audience?

It's strange that people lump these four together. There's a marked difference between Facebook/Instagram (friends first, sharing encouraged by all users) vs. Twitter/TikTok (mainly acting as a broadcast medium with a long tail).

Re: Web3 is expensive P2P

#84

What is the value proposition of web3 to the user? JS web apps offloaded the compute and memory onto the browser/client, web3 to offload storage costs onto the user. You will up pay for every click. web3 and metaverse feels so dystopian. but the young generations that were raised by tiktok will probably accept it.

Data portability is a huge value prop: Everywhere you sign-in, you already have all of your data. Is it bad to pay to click, if you earn more from the ads on the page? Along with micro-payments, you also micro-earn.

So, being FULLY tracked by every website ever, on every device at the same time, since all your data is whatever wallet you use across devices anyway, is now a good thing?

Re: Web3 is expensive P2P

#85
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Game devs could offer transferable content without stores if they stopped using the stores (ok, admittedly, iOS makes this harder). Web3 has nothing to do with this.

it has everything to do with it: 1. you purchase digital items with centralized payment processors like VISA 2. the asset is transferred to your centralized iOS/Steam account. you do not "own" it, the company owns it. if you are banned from Steam, you lose all your games and game purchases. web3 is asking how these two things can be changed to remove the intermediary. the best frame for this is not "web3 ideals are n…

[deleted]

Re: Web3 is expensive P2P

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Is there something specific about TikTok technology/usage pattern paving the way for distopy acceptance or it's just the same concept of facebook/instagram/Twitter but with a younger audience?

It’s just a low-tier generalization about newer generation. Nothing to analyze here. There is nothing about TikTok that makes my generation mindless Web3 drones.

OK Zoomer. OF COURSE you're going to deny the generalization and blame the accuser. That's generational warfare 101.

Doesn't make their thoughts any less valid.

There are clear differences between the Facebook demo and the Tiktok demo. I am not smart enough to be able to articulate them but they are there.

Re: Web3 is expensive P2P

#87

Moxie Marlinspike on Web3 [1]: * "People don’t want to run their own servers, and never will" * "A protocol moves much more slowly than a platform" [1] https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html

> "People don’t want to run their own servers, and never will"

Most people. And there's still a ton of "non-technical" (minimal programming/operations skills) but technically literate people who will not run their own servers but prefer to pay for applications and services that are built on protocols like RSS, ActivityPub etc.

Also hosting providers make it much more easy today than ever before. It's not "running your own server" but you get definitely quite a bit of control and ownership if you rent a VPS that runs stuff you created and/or installed.

> "A protocol moves much more slowly than a platform"

That's a good thing.

---

However, I think overall these are very good points. Personally I think there is just too much crap that goes under Web3 to the extend that it is repulsive. I'd rather help people to use computers, even if it is someone else's (AKA the cloud).

Re: Web3 is expensive P2P

#88

What is the value proposition of web3 to the user? JS web apps offloaded the compute and memory onto the browser/client, web3 to offload storage costs onto the user. You will up pay for every click. web3 and metaverse feels so dystopian. but the young generations that were raised by tiktok will probably accept it.

Data portability is a huge value prop: Everywhere you sign-in, you already have all of your data. Is it bad to pay to click, if you earn more from the ads on the page? Along with micro-payments, you also micro-earn.

How does data portability actually work? I hear it talked about a lot, but I've never seen anything more than vague hand-waving as to the actual mechanics of it.

Re: Web3 is expensive P2P

#89
post #69

What is the value proposition of web3 to the user? JS web apps offloaded the compute and memory onto the browser/client, web3 to offload storage costs onto the user. You will up pay for every click. web3 and metaverse feels so dystopian. but the young generations that were raised by tiktok will probably accept it.

Some benefits that I think web3 can bring to the user: - Universal login: An alternative to "Sign in with Google/Apple/XYZ" that can't be denied by a corporation. There are countless examples of these companies deactivating accounts for questionable reasons. - Permissionless composability: I'm not sure how to word this one better. If a developer wants to build on top of blockchain data, they can. No need to apply for…

And who else will then operate the web3 infrastructure?

Instead of the Security team at Google, their ddos service and OnCall experts we have whom now?

Some miners?

Perfectly written Blockchain code?

You sound like those things are just free.

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