Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting observation. I wonder how much of the difference is between high physical activity, where often the work requires multiple people manipulating the same physical object (I hold the door, you attach the hinge), vs low physical activity, where often the work requires multiple people manipulating highly abstract concepts with purely imaginary connections (I write the API, you write the caller).
The physical/non-physical distinction might be a bit of a red herring, as this seems more a differentiation between repetitive and non-repetitive work. I.e. assembly line worker vs carpenter I'd hazard most people tend to dislike repetitive work, if they have the choice.
Many software companies are a joke
231–240 of 377 posts
Re: Many software companies are a joke
#232Imagine actually caring, my aim is to get away with as little work as I can while still earning good money. ‘No nonsense coding and learning’ cringe, imagine actually liking to write software. After 11 years of embedded dev, I can safely say I rather not write a single line of code ever again. This whole industry is 99% bullshit. Thankfully I could exploit it for a lot of monetary gains
Nothing wrong with viewing work solely as your means for funding the important parts of your life.
Re: Many software companies are a joke
#233I find this way of thinking very short-sighted. It may be true that this application can be written in net time in 5 months, but much more important than writing code is to know clearly what is needed, what users need. Moreover, requirements and wishes change over time. I have seen more than once that months of development time were wasted on something the users didn't need, so good product managers and senior software engineers who question things are often more valuable than engineers who write hundreds of lines of code a day.
Re: Many software companies are a joke
#234I was reading https://danluu.com/sounds-easy again today, and when reading this article I was reminded of a particular section: "Everything we've looked at so far is a technical problem. Compared to organizational problems, technical problems are straightforward. Distributed systems are considered hard because real systems might drop something like 0.1% of messages, corrupt an even smaller percentage of messages, and…
> The author seems like someone who just loves writing code as opposed to wanting to deliver maximum business value (As defined by the company), so it makes sense he dislikes big companies. I think the point is that very little actual business value is being created. This not necessarily due to "actual business needs" but because of deterioration of culture over time and the inevitable principal-agent induced issue o…
Re: Many software companies are a joke
#235The sad thing is that it’s a joke that many people don’t seem to be in on. You get all these defenders coming out of the woodwork when people wonder what the hell all the programmers at say, Twitter, are doing. Supposedly you puny mind can’t comprehend the challenges of developing a website “at scale” The real answer is, almost nothing. People are being paid very high salaries to do nothing.
That's what I am thinking. E.g. I am looking at lichess which has a massive user base and is developed by one full time developer and a few dozens volunteers. Twitter is obviously bigger, but I simply don't buy that you need more than 7000 people to run that site.
Took a FT job at a megacorp a few years ago and assigned a new project - I read the specs/requirements and in my IC mind thought to myself - if I was hired as contractor to develop this tool, how much would I charge? and how long would it take me? - and came up with 1 person, for 2 months, and would have been delighted to be able to bill $40K for it, but probably would have went it at $60K on a fixed bid (I always preferred fix bids).
Of course this wasn't a project I was bidding on, I was just the lead dev - the company pulled together a team of almost a dozen people and a budget of just over a million dollars with a 8 month timeframe to get it done - they also budgeted another $120K/year to host it when it was done on multiple big servers in the internal data center.
We spent the full million dollars and got it done - I did however have one small win and pushed them to micro-services solution in S3 and Aws Lambda and got the whole thing to run within the free-tier of an AWS account.
If you ever start a small software company, don't ever hire people that have only worked in large enterprises - they just don't know how to get things done cost or time efficiently.
Re: Many software companies are a joke
#236Earlier quoted context omitted.
You seem to talk in absolutes while I'm just acknowledging there is more than one right answer. And I do have specific real cases from my experience in mind... One of a great product that never finished (money ran out, CEO didn't want to provide something that was for "a single customer" as in your words), another of a shitty buggy unmaintainable software that did grow a company from 4 to 100 employees then to an exi…
The 3 year survival odds are about 1:23 for software/services startups, and 1:70 for hardware projects. I have culled many half-arsed options... and the decisions are far from arbitrary. Also, who budgets for a project burning over $100k a month in labor without a detailed plan... lol
Start-up have terrible survival odds. Decisions should not be arbitrary. There should be a detailed plan.
Re: Many software companies are a joke
#237Imagine actually caring, my aim is to get away with as little work as I can while still earning good money. ‘No nonsense coding and learning’ cringe, imagine actually liking to write software. After 11 years of embedded dev, I can safely say I rather not write a single line of code ever again. This whole industry is 99% bullshit. Thankfully I could exploit it for a lot of monetary gains
I agree. Actually, I have never met anyone who has liked writing code. How much code do any of these high profile programmers even write anymore? Linus, etc? If the leaders of the industry don't even write code, it says a lot.
This is mainly because most other people can execute with a better level of completeness than I can in the context of open source dev. This is mainly because I don't actually like programming, but I sure as shit love the niche I am programming for...
Re: Many software companies are a joke
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm sorry to hear that, indeed, the engineers have to follow through on their end as well. That means "working" software, minimally functional, has to be delivered ASAP, at least to be able to gouge customer engagement. "Design Patterns" and the latest "Web Framework" fad are the opposite of delivering working software. How you find people with the right mentality? I'm not sure. Low-level game devs tend to have that…
Yep, both managers and contributors have a faulty model of agile. We're all guilty of it, even those of us who know it when we see it because we know the theory so well. Finding people with the right mentality is, as you say, very hard. The temptation of the manager is to get people with the wrong mentality and wrap them enough process that it will fix them. The temptation of the contributor is to blame the manager w…
I've also had to deal with the "bad" manager that gives no push (nor any time) for stabilization, leading the code to a near-project-killing state of constant malfunction. Quite a few of the principles in the manifesto are about avoiding exactly this state, but they too are not followed correctly.
The following are in a different order in the manifesto, but I think this should be the way to read them, they almost form a coherent paragraph:
"Continuous attention to technical excellence and good design enhances agility. At regular intervals, the team reflects on how to become more effective, then tunes and adjusts its behavior accordingly. Agile processes promote sustainable development. The sponsors, developers, and users should be able to maintain a constant pace indefinitely."
This means quality needs to be considered from the beginning and maintained, but that's not contradicting the fast delivery, quite the opposite (proven by many studies on Continuous Delivery).
Quality arises from constant refactoring the working code to be better, based on the results obtained from seeing that code running. Not from planning ahead with some insane micro-service bullshit architecture 3 months in advance for a project that probably will never scale to a size that needs that nonsense (at which point you deal with it).
But you have to give time for that cleanup work, and introduce a culture that demands that quality (where quality is measured by the software working well and delivering value, not by how theoretically "clean" the code is) otherwise it simply won't happen.
I've also had to deal with the "good" manager that tries to fix the above issues (after they happened) with processes. In my experience they just slow down velocity and don't resolve any of the actual problems. It's like telling a plumber that is almost swimming in shit to read and sign a 20 page document before turning off the valve of the pipe that's spewing brown liquid everywhere. That plumber is just going to hate you.
The only thing that works is to demand both continuous delivery and consistent quality (and allow time for the latter at the expense of the former if need be), ensure you have the right lead, communicate openly and regularly, and then let the team do its thing. If the devs and PMs don't see each other as allies rather than annoyances, the whole thing falls apart.
Also all it takes is 1 bad dev to spoil the bunch, I've seen them do so much damage it's nuts (stuff like introduce some whole new web framework nobody else in the team knows on some part of the project, or rework entire parts of the code to be async even though then it doesn't work with the rest of the codebase). Code review / pair programming is supposed to prevent this but if the team lead lacks the strength to keep devs like that in line, you're screwed anyway.
"Individuals and interactions over processes and tools"
If the individuals and interactions are wrong, no amount of processes and tools will fix it... I guess companies the size of Microsoft and Google can throw enough money at the problem that things work out somehow, despite the abysmal quality of most of their software.
Re: Many software companies are a joke
#239The sad thing is that it’s a joke that many people don’t seem to be in on. You get all these defenders coming out of the woodwork when people wonder what the hell all the programmers at say, Twitter, are doing. Supposedly you puny mind can’t comprehend the challenges of developing a website “at scale” The real answer is, almost nothing. People are being paid very high salaries to do nothing.