How I Started to See Trees as Smart
11–20 of 47 posts
Re: How I Started to See Trees as Smart
#12The article provoked a thought: Only when you slow down to a thought speed of a tree, you can fully enjoy the beauty of this world.
I can't attest to its veracity but this animal perception is discussed b In this video by musician benn Jordan https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvg242U2YfQ
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I'm not convinced that the visual/time part of this is correct. If we follow the analogy with sonic fusion frequency ... there's a point at which a repeating sound will change from being a rythmic experience and instead becomes a pitch. So, if you are in an acoustic environment that is generally filled with pitch information, and you could somehow shift your sonic fusion frequency ... if you moved it down, even some of the non-pitch sounds will become pitches; if you move it up, some of the pitches (the lower ones) will now be perceived as rhythmns instead. But ... and this is the important part ... the actual frequencies of the sounds will not change at all. So there's a fixed physical phenomenon (acoustic pressure waves at various frequencies) which does not change, but the sonic fusion frequency determines what kind of experience we have when we encounter that phenomenon. Notice though, that it's a more or less binary switch: either we perceive N Hz as a pitch or as a rythmn, and varying the fusion frequency doesn't alter that. Nor does it various the actual physical frequencies of the sounds - they continue to be whatever they were.
I suspect this is likely true for visual fusion frequencies too.
Moreover, the comparison with video and/or film is misleading. In those cases, the actual phenomena are a discrete series of images that because of CFFF end up being perceived (or not) as continuous motion. But when looking at the actual world, to within the limits of our senses, ALL phenomena are continuous. If an insect flies across your field of vision, there are no distinct series of images that your brain does (or does not) fuse into continuous motion. There is only a continuous motion, which you may or may not notice (the whole thing may happen too fast for you to even register the entire pass.
CFFF, if I understand correctly, is measuring how fast you need to present discrete visual information for the brain to "fuse" it into continuous information (such as motion, or a persistently "on" LED light. But this doesn't seem to have anything to do with how we and other animals perceive reality, because reality is not a series of discrete images. I don't believe that CFFF has much to do with our ability to perceive time, or even with limit questions such as "how long must something be in our visual field in order to notice that it was there".
Could be that I'm missing something huge here, in which case I hope that Benn or someone else will correct me.
Re: How I Started to See Trees as Smart
#13This just seems completely wrong. The wrongness comes from conflating completely orthogonal concepts: speed of detection, speed of response and "smartness". The fly is very fast at detecting and responding to motion in its vicinity, but that property does not make the author look foolish, just slow.
It seems like a strange mistake to make, given the article's musings on different time scales of thought in e.g. plants. If the author applied the same analysis as they do in the quote above, then obviously us humans make the trees look foolish because we can detect and react to things so quickly. I don't think they believe that about a human/tree comparison, so I have no idea why they would close an article with the same comparison and conclusion between a human and a fly.
Re: How I Started to See Trees as Smart
#14The article provoked a thought: Only when you slow down to a thought speed of a tree, you can fully enjoy the beauty of this world.
Re: How I Started to See Trees as Smart
#15> In the game of survival, an insect’s reaction time easily beats my attempts to swat it. I may think of myself as the smartest creature in the room, but a fly can make me look foolish. This just seems completely wrong. The wrongness comes from conflating completely orthogonal concepts: speed of detection, speed of response and "smartness". The fly is very fast at detecting and responding to motion in its vicinity, b…
Re: How I Started to See Trees as Smart
#16> In the game of survival, an insect’s reaction time easily beats my attempts to swat it. I may think of myself as the smartest creature in the room, but a fly can make me look foolish. This just seems completely wrong. The wrongness comes from conflating completely orthogonal concepts: speed of detection, speed of response and "smartness". The fly is very fast at detecting and responding to motion in its vicinity, b…
True, but many people oppose eating even very simple animals (think clams) for ethical reasons, but have no qualms with plants. I don’t think it’s totally absurd to use the authors point to argue that maybe plants reach the level of agency of some simple animals.
Re: How I Started to See Trees as Smart
#17The article provoked a thought: Only when you slow down to a thought speed of a tree, you can fully enjoy the beauty of this world.
The Overstory, a book by Richard Powers, explores this idea, starting with a story of American chestnuts over many human generations and westward expansion.
It made me think about timescales very much: if trees moved at human scale time, we'd think about them in a totally different way, and I'm sure would be very much more open to the notion that they're intelligent in many ways.
Re: How I Started to See Trees as Smart
#18> In the game of survival, an insect’s reaction time easily beats my attempts to swat it. I may think of myself as the smartest creature in the room, but a fly can make me look foolish. This just seems completely wrong. The wrongness comes from conflating completely orthogonal concepts: speed of detection, speed of response and "smartness". The fly is very fast at detecting and responding to motion in its vicinity, b…
Actually the author is using the wrong technique if he is trying to swat the fly.
Flies use their compound eyes and a collection of sensitive hairs on their bodies to detect threats and avoid being swatted. You can use this to your advantage.
When the fly lands on something you should approach slowly and steadily from the same direction with your palms open and ready to clap together. Move slowly as your hands get close to the fly so as to cause a minimal air disturbance. By moving slowly, the fly finds it difficult to parse the fact that your hands are getting closer and once you are within a foot or so (.3m) clap your hands together as fast as possible.
Your hands will be close enough that even with the fly's excellent acceleration and detection skills it will be difficult for the fly to escape being crushed. Make sure your fingers are cupped so that the fly is spit out between them as the air escapes during the clap.
It may help to consider that many times a fly will launch itself slightly backwards when it takes flight before zipping forward rapidly. Plan your clap so that the fly will be trapped even if they shift backwards slightly.
Wash your hands when you're done.
This method is successful for me more than 95% of the time when I allow the fly to land. If the fly is nervously zipping around just be patient. It will pause and then you can clap.
Re: How I Started to See Trees as Smart
#19When you don't need answers in a hurry, there is no need for all the thinking bits to being one place. A lot less of that is needed because everything doesn't need to be done all at once; the same bits can work on different stages of a problem. It is safer to distribute it all more or less evenly throughout the organism. The bits can do other jobs besides, when not needed for thinking with. There is no need to connec…
Re: How I Started to See Trees as Smart
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
True, but many people oppose eating even very simple animals (think clams) for ethical reasons, but have no qualms with plants. I don’t think it’s totally absurd to use the authors point to argue that maybe plants reach the level of agency of some simple animals.
I don't disagree with that in any way. My point was that "super-fast-reacting thing makes obviously intelligent slower thing look foolish" is both an incorrect and odd conclusion to close TFA with.