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Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

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Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#71

My understanding is that Intel boosts power so a single core can chew through a program quicker than being inherently energy efficient (performance-per-watt). Most of the time this benefits Intel, because a core will boost-up-then-down quicker over completion of the program than a more efficient AMD processor core. (This is my layman understanding.) I solidly believe AMD is the king for efficiency, but I wish I could…

I believe practical laptop benchmarks show and to have better real-world efficiency. But I haven't kept up very well.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#72
This reminds me of the 'transition' to multi-core code started in the "Core" days (or actually AMD's Athlon X2). The switch to multi-core/thread/process (as this all were steps towards such approach) needed to be implemented by all layers (h/w, os, s/w).

We're now getting from symmetrical to heterogeneous computing becoming the mains-stream on all platforms.

Just a few weeks ago there was here the issue with measuring efficiency which is flawed on Apple's Activity Monitor.

As the multi-thread code paradigms thrived, asymmetrical-cores will also become part of the toolchain eventually.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#73

Personally I don't really see a point in having a hybrid architecture like this unless it'll lead to massively increased core counts, and so far it doesn't look like it does. AMD still beats Intel in both core counts and power efficiency, and they're only using P cores so... what's the point of having E cores? But maybe that's just because it's a first generation technology for Intel? I hope things improve in the fut…

> Personally I don't really see a point in having a hybrid architecture like this unless it'll lead to massively increased core counts What about massively reduced energy consumption and associated loss of head dissipation/noise and increased battery life? Isn't that why Apple and mobile phone SoCs introduced that design in the first place?

> What about massively reduced energy consumption and associated loss of head dissipation/noise and increased battery life?

I hope their drivers would work properly with the OS. Else, the user would be locked on either the performance cores or the efficiency cores - it happens with laptops with dual graphics card (intel inbuilt and high performance Nvidia or AMD graphics)

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us write software for a living. You give me two more cores, I'll use them.

I'm a dev too, my machine is a dual core haswell. It depends very much what you're doing of course (compiling linux kernel repeatedly perhaps) but if you have a little you can get a heck of a lot out of it with experience, although you surely will hit a wall sometime. But 32 cores not enough is just unimaginable for me.

Not the same use case, but we regularly saturate 48 cores doing simple - and heavily parallelized - text analysis and language processing work.

So much so that I’m now trying to figure out whether we can somehow cheaply move to a dual Epyc 7742 setup.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alas you can't do that for every workload, and even for those where you can that brings extra complexity. On a single machine I can just replace an `.iter()` into a `.par_iter()` in my Rust programs and boom, I parallelized my workload across every core with only a single line change. It's not that simple with multiple machines. (I might do that one day, but I'm not there yet.)

Gotcha. But FYI I wrote a work farmer years ago and it wasn't difficult. You just manually started a program over there and started the farmer over here and that was all. It could use every machine in the office. These days there may be better solutions than hand-rolling it, never used it but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_parallel > might work. Also see if beowulf software has anything to make it easier. Good luc…

Look for Slurm Workload Manager, that is the off-the-shelf product for that.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in $dayjob I have used an 8-core (16-thread) CPU to 100% regularly, as well as fully utilising 64-GB of RAM. I would be able to use 16 cores, 32, or more. Random examples: Trawling through 70 GB of web server log files going back years with ad-hoc analytics. I tried ingesting this into a cloud service but it was taking forever , and cost a non-trivial amount of money. It was also dog slow compared to just doing it…

Cloud stuff is never going to make sense, local machine it is. I do see what you're saying and here it seems like a good fit for a massive machine. No argument here. NB. "Trawling through 70 GB of web server log files" unless you partition your search you're going to be doing a lot of IO due to having only 64-GB of RAM. Chucking in extra mem to keep it all ram-resident will beat cores any day.

You would be... surprised.

The query engine in Microsoft SQL Server is absurdly advanced, and simply beats the pants off just about everything else for complex, general-case queries. There are other engines that are better tuned for special cases, but if you've got "stuff" that's within the capacity of a single box, it's really hard to beat MSSQL.

Let's expand on my example above: Clustered ColumnStore.[1]

It's basically PowerBI or Vertica embedded within the traditional MSSQL engine. This extension enables the ability to have a per-column (vertical) on-disk storage format instead of the traditional row-store format most databases have.

You can have it as a secondary acceleration index, or as a clustered (primary) index. In the latter case, it'll compress your raw table data. For my log files it was 33-to-1 compression (3% of the original file size).

Second, even if the data doesn't fit into memory, it'll utilise the columnar storage to simply ignore (skip) columns it doesn't need for the query. I was computing performance statistics, so it was just reading in some numbers instead of the text. A further 100-to-1 optimisation can be gained here.

It then parallelises this across all cores/hyperthreads, so I get 100% utilisation on 16 cores.

All of this I/O is fully asynchronous with a huge queue depth. Expect to see 200K IOPS on a laptop, easily.

Once in memory, it uses Intel AVX SIMD instructions to chew through the data 8 rows per clock tick per core. With 8 cores going at once, this is 64 rows per clock, or up to 234 billion rows processed per second.

What's neat about it is that it's fully general: Columnstore can be mixed -- in a single query -- with in-memory tables, on-disk tables, traditional row-store, and external tables streamed in over the network. The engine will just... "figure this out". It'll build indexes on the fly if it has to, ideally in memory, but failing that... it'll stream disk-to-disk as required. I've seen "sort spills" reach 600K IOPS on my laptop.

If I have to scan through years of logs and be able to join it against additional tables for "enriching" it, then it's hard to beat. Sure, there's a scale where the are dedicated log analytics databases, but they have their quirks, limitations, and costs.

I take your incredulity that others can fully utilise their computers as a sign that general knowledge of just what is possible is poor. People have pointed out that some simple shell scripts can outperform Hadoop clusters up to a surprising scale. Similarly, knowledge of the capabilities of traditional database engines like MSSQL is oddly lacking, even amongst developers. Not to mention more esoteric ways of making your computer do your bidding, such as Mathematica, Julia, GPU codes, or whatever.

Your computer is a power tool for your squishy, manual-labour meat brain! A lever for the mind. Learn to utilise it better and you'll be better at thinking.

[1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sql/relational-databases/in...

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD beats them because they are a process node ahead. Dunno why every comment implies there's some design gap that leads to M1 or AMD being more powerful or efficient. It's 90% the process node. There is no magic design sauce that makes those chips better. The big/little design change did seem to improve performance quite a bit for Intel, even using the same manufacturing node as before

I don’t completely agree. A MacBook Air M1 is 25% faster than a 10th generation Intel 10700K, running the same code full of floating point instructions and matrices. It’s not a simple matter of process node. The same MacBook Air can do hour long Skype video calls with ~9% charge consumption, with no discernible heat difference on the body too. M1 is a different beast.

Isn't M1 two process nodes ahead of the 10700K?

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#78
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a dev too, my machine is a dual core haswell. It depends very much what you're doing of course (compiling linux kernel repeatedly perhaps) but if you have a little you can get a heck of a lot out of it with experience, although you surely will hit a wall sometime. But 32 cores not enough is just unimaginable for me.

Not the same use case, but we regularly saturate 48 cores doing simple - and heavily parallelized - text analysis and language processing work. So much so that I’m now trying to figure out whether we can somehow cheaply move to a dual Epyc 7742 setup.

Whenever I read stuff like this my inner optimiser starts wondering where the CPU is going and why - massive GC cycles, inefficient regexp stuff, poor algo choice, bad cache locality, etc etc.

At the risk of ill manners but i must ask, have you looked at all this because I've got in some cases orders of magnitude speedup by popping the hood and instrumenting.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#79

Personally I don't really see a point in having a hybrid architecture like this unless it'll lead to massively increased core counts, and so far it doesn't look like it does. AMD still beats Intel in both core counts and power efficiency, and they're only using P cores so... what's the point of having E cores? But maybe that's just because it's a first generation technology for Intel? I hope things improve in the fut…

ARM's HMP made sense for mobile devices like phones. I don't see any use for big.LITTLE designs on workstations or servers.

For workstations and servers there's still hundreds of low priority housekeeping threads that can run on efficiency cores. Using them means the work gets done for less power and thus less heat. While a server isn't worried about battery life every saved bit of power is saved dollars in aggregate in a data center.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#80
You get a bunch of smart hardware guys into a room, they design this funky exotic architecture. Then the software goes "Allocate these threads to whatever is idle" and suddenly you've completely lost any possible advantage and are thrashing around with no idea what you're doing. The big-little architecture from Apple was accompanied by software that basically handles that for you. From what I heard there were similar problems with Xeon Phi - great theoretical performance but a very difficult programming model and as a result very challenging sales for the Intel sales guys.
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