Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice • Hacker News Board

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#201

Post by jyscao » Sat, May 14, 2022, 11:32 PM UTC

s5300 wrote: post #117

Commodore63 wrote: post #40

Jordan Peterson had a horrible time with these drugs and resorted to extreme measures to get off them (eight days in an induced coma!) Even today he might still be on them - he is pretty cagey about his present pharma situation when asked about it on podcasts. https://nationalpost.com/health/jordan-peterson-benzodiazepi... Horrible drug.

Peterson is a verified idiot with nonexistent self-control. Not the slightest modicum of it. Basing anything off of his antics is asinine. So weird to see people who put him on a pedestal on HN. & benzos aren’t “horrible drugs” People who don’t know how to manage themselves and their usage of them are horrible people though, especially when they try to cut down others who have no issues using them responsibly, which…

> which sometimes literally saves their entire lives.

considering how benzos came into existence barely half a century ago, i highly doubt not having benzos as part of one's pharmaceutical cocktail is the fundamental difference maker to one's life or death. so even to those who are now dependent on them, their long-term health will almost certainly be better served by getting to the root cause of their health issues. not saying that's an easy thing to do, but that's still the reality.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

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Post by kayodelycaon » Sat, May 14, 2022, 11:37 PM UTC

r3trohack3r wrote: post #170

pirate787 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family was addicted to benzos by a quack doctor who hands them out like candy. He has many seniors on it long term for "anxiety" and though seniors are at particular risk and are not supposed to use more than 6 months.

I got to see this side of American medicine while in high school. My great aunt unofficially overdosed on a cocktail of drugs prescribed by a group of loosely coordinating doctors. When she passed, her cocktail included 12 prescriptions. One of her doctors had prescribed her medication to lower her blood pressure while another had her on medication to raise it.

Ouch. People are really bad at handling their own medical care. I’m legitimately on 8 different medications and 3 supplements (not including vitamins), per doctor’s instructions.

There is no way I’m going to any appointment (including my dentist) without a printed list of everything, including the dosages, instructions, and reason for being on it.

Edit: I apologize for the poor phrasing. It comes off being flippant. The reality is the American system is often broken, and it’s up to the patient to manage their own care. And for many reasons, people don’t or can’t.

What I was trying to say is, I have to do this and be diligent about it because no one else will. :(

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

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Post by hombre_fatal » Sat, May 14, 2022, 11:38 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #93

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not just talking about benzos, but also anti psychotics, amphetamines, statins, and basically the whole gamut. My brother is a pharmacist, and is constantly shocked by the prescriptions that healthy people bring in to get filled. The medical field has been unjustly given too much prestige.

I believe blaming this on doctors only is way to easy. I believe many people demand medication when they go to the doctor. If they go because of a cold they don't accept being told to rest for a week, but demand antibiotics, if they feel depressed they don't want to be told to exercise, but want a quick medication etc.. I definitely see this since coming to Sweden, where it's difficult for doctors to prescribe antibi…

I'm sure you can find examples of failings on all sides, but doctors are the ones that pull the trigger.

When I got an amphetamine prescription in uni (like everyone else), I felt like I was lucky to have a doctor that started me off on the lowest dose.

Everyone I knew was on a much higher dose than me just starting out. People would get a dual prescription of XR capsules + IR tabs when they need a bump. Then when they couldn't sleep, the doc would just add another pill to the mix. And not just a mild one, but an extreme one like Seroquel.

Your doctor just isn't a specialist, and certainly not someone specializing in you and your specific ailments despite what we seem to pretend in these threads. Best strategy is to be informed and meet them in the middle.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

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Post by colechristensen » Sat, May 14, 2022, 11:39 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #188

colechristensen wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first time I took Xanax I cleaned my kitchen and it went from mildly embarrassing to quite presentable in an hour or two. I could actually execute the things I wanted to do without fighting though ridiculous feelings. I am treated like an addict or ridiculous when I tell doctors I'd rather not "try SSRIs" or a series of strange sedating substances because they're all so afraid of prescribing something with addict…

Wouldn't you be afraid? Patients who get addicted to benzodiazepines are likely to end up taking them their whole lives, even in old age, in ever escalating dosages due to tolerance. Elderly patients on these drugs are at higher risk of losing their balance, falling, fracturing a femur and entering a fragile state after losing their functionality and independence. If anything doctors aren't afraid enough. Polypharmac…

I have a healthy respect for substances and try to understand the things they do with me, but have never had any problems at all with addiction. I'm not saying other people shouldn't make their own assessments for themselves.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#205

Post by heavyset_go » Sat, May 14, 2022, 11:40 PM UTC

SemanticStrengh wrote: post #179

heavyset_go wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FDA's argument is that it isn't a naturally occurring substance like an amino acid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picamilon#Regulation

insane hypocrisy from the Federal Death Agency, a prodrug is functionally the exact same thing as the endogenously occuring substance

I agree. I tried picamilon in the past, it's a very benign substance. Never experienced withdrawals or dependence. It's not like it's an exogenous GABA ligand or modulator, either. I'd venture to say that if any GABA actually makes it to the brain, it's just recycled via reuptake into pre/post-synaptic clefts, whereas phenibut and benzodiazepines cause increased binding of existing GABA, and in their absence, can cause dependence when GABA receptors return to their natural binding states.

edit: apparently phenibut directly binds to GABA receptors, which is different than how benzodiazepines work. It also acts like gabapentin.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#206

Post by nootropicat » Sat, May 14, 2022, 11:41 PM UTC

r3trohack3r wrote: post #170

pirate787 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family was addicted to benzos by a quack doctor who hands them out like candy. He has many seniors on it long term for "anxiety" and though seniors are at particular risk and are not supposed to use more than 6 months.

I got to see this side of American medicine while in high school. My great aunt unofficially overdosed on a cocktail of drugs prescribed by a group of loosely coordinating doctors. When she passed, her cocktail included 12 prescriptions. One of her doctors had prescribed her medication to lower her blood pressure while another had her on medication to raise it.

Yes, I have seen something similar happen too - a temporary illnes that most likely didn't need any drugs, prescription for drugs that caused side effects, but then another drug for those side effects and the situation repeated 5 times in total, passing 3 different doctors. The real solution that worked was to stop taking everything.

Unfortunately listening to average doctor is a recipe for illness. Doctors belong to a medieval-style guild that managed to make it illegal to heal other people if you aren't its member, and extremely hard to buy needed drugs for yourself because of prescription (fortunately it's possible now because of internet pharmacies) - the latter of which is borderline slavery.

Against all 'expert' opinion, I'm pretty on average everyone would be better off trying to cure themselves using information from the internet - or at the very least everyone on hn.

My mother had hypothyroidism and got prescribed levothyroxine. She didn't like the idea of taking it forever, and after researching the internet found out selenium deficiency can cause it too. Directed blood test found a severe deficiency. After a month of taking selenium supplements thyroid hormones normalized. Internet self-diagnosis > average doctor.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

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Post by m_a_g » Sat, May 14, 2022, 11:43 PM UTC

SemanticStrengh wrote: post #45

The world of medecine is degenerate. Sustainable, non addictive and non neurotoxic anxiolytics exists: the #1 being opipramol the sigmaergic. emoxypine (which btw cure hangover) and guanfacine are worth mentioning. Maybe beta blockers to some extent. NMDA antagonists such as memantine have side effects but are not neurotoxic to my knowledge and there are milder ones such as mg-lthreonate. afobazole is interesting but…

I've been seeing your comments on HN and you seem very well-read. Is there a drug/supplement stack you recommend or use? I've seen you recommend magnesium l-threonate and skq1 several times and I was wondering if there are more drugs/supplements that are worth mentioning.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

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Post by matheusmoreira » Sat, May 14, 2022, 11:46 PM UTC

throwaway284534 wrote: post #108

sascha_sl wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can't have ADHD, if you had ADHD, you could not have driven here for an hour" -- real thing that happened to someone I know.

This is a exactly the kind of puritanical catch-22 that entrenches every corner ADHD treatment. “Oh, your justification for access to the high-inducing , party drug of amphetamine is that it’ll cure your lack of focus? Well, if these dangerously addictive drugs so effective, then surely you can handle 30 day prescriptions with no refills.” God forbid your prescription runs out on a weekend or holiday when your doctor…

If doctors are concerned about abuse, they can just prescribe lisdexamphetamine instead of dextroamphetamine. Abuse potential, addiction and the subjective high associated with these drugs are all related to the speed it enters the brain. Lisdexamphetamine gets slowly converted into dextroamphetamine once in the blood stream. Much safer drug in general, not sure why it's not as widely used as Adderall.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

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Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 14, 2022, 11:47 PM UTC

jmcgough wrote: post #24

fermentation wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had some anxiety issues in France and a doctor that I met with (who I had trouble speaking to) prescribed daily benzos for a month. Towards the end of the month it felt like my body NEEDED the pills. It was scary.

Your brain chemistry acclimates to using a GABA agonist every day and will get out of whack if you stop taking it :( like anxiety will be WAY WORSE when going through withdrawal. I still use a benzo (lowest dose lamictal) but only about once a month when I need hit the panic button. It's really not meant to be a daily use drug, scared me when a friend was prescribed it as a daily medication.

[deleted]

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#210

Post by kayodelycaon » Sat, May 14, 2022, 11:48 PM UTC

SemanticStrengh wrote: post #186

kayodelycaon wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some supplements are basically unregulated medications. I found out the hard way that L-Theanine does not mix well with bipolar disorder. I suspect it inactivated the mood stabilizer I was on.

that is surprising to hear. ltheanine action of GABA should calm/stabilize you. it's action of dopamine might trigger anxiety/anger/mania but the effect is so mild vs caffeine/nicotine/amphetamine that I find it surprising/weird. To be clear we are talking about theanine and not theine.

Both Lamotrigine (anticonvulsant) and L-Theanine act on glutamate.

Mixing them was a bad, bad idea. I don’t think I slept more than 2 hours a day most of March. (My psychiatrist was not happy.)