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Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

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Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#101
post #82
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overall good line of thought, but a few other things are worth considering. It is vastly underappreciated just how much the EPA has retarded energy development in the US. The retroactive revocation of permits for the mountaintop coal project, the Keystone XL imbroglio, and the hasty ban on offshore drilling are just a few examples. (Not many know that Deepwater Horizon was out that far because of regulations forbiddi…

How much oil is in off the East Coast passive margin? 20 bboe (which is twice the best estimates of MMS)? That would make it on par with the North Slope in Alaska, an elephant field. That's 3 years or less of US consumption, or about 7 months of global consumption. BFD. And that comment about the Deepwater Horizon not being able to drill closer to the shore... that's eyepopping. The shallow-water GoM in the Mississip…

  And that comment about the Deepwater Horizon not being able 
  to drill closer to the shore... that's eyepopping. The 
  shallow-water GoM in the Mississippi Delta has been drilled 
  for decades.
Shallow water drilling has been disincentivized in favor of deep water drilling for several years in part because of tourism and NIMBYism concerns. People do not want to see drills from the shore. This is well known in the sector. You can find articles on the topic before 2010 by using archive search in Google News.

http://www.stpns.net/view_article.html?articleId=10841083261...

  July 13, 2006

  Through financial incentives, the House bill  encourages     
  states to allow offshore drilling. For drilling within 12 
  miles of their coastlines, the states collect 75% of all 
  royalties. They get 50% of all royalties for drilling up to 
  100 miles offshore. Louisiana, whose lawmakers authored the 
  bill, stands to collect an additional $50 billion over the 
  next 30 years. South Carolina, with no offshore drilling in 
  its history, has no idea of the potential payoff. The South 
  Carolina concern appears to be more turf protection by the 
  tourism lobby, and that includes Gov. Mark Sanford.

  South Carolina's $10 billion tourism industry could be 
  threatened, according to Sanford, *even though the state 
  could restrict offshore drilling to a distance more than 
  100 miles out*. The federal authority is demarcated at 200 
  miles out, and beyond that is open international waters.
Notice: tourism concerns (and NIMBY issues, not mentioned in this piece) are cited as a reason to move drilling further offshore, in part by giving financial incentives (50% rather than 75% of royalties) for locating drills out of sight. Note also that Louisiana's lawmakers authored the bill. You can dig in more if you wish, but there were a variety of reasons why lawmakers preferred drilling further away from shores. And Republicans were just as culpable:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,166334,00.htm...

  July 3, 2001

  "Floridians have spoken loud and clear, and their voices 
  have been heard by President Bush," Florida Gov. Jeb Bush 
  said Monday after Interior Secretary Gale Norton announced 
  the administration would ask Congress to let oil companies 
  drill on about 1.5 million more acres in the Gulf of 
  Mexico. That's just a quarter of the roughly 6 million 
  acres that the Clinton administration first proposed 
  opening for leasing in 1997 and that the Bush/Cheney energy 
  plan had earmarked for drilling.

  Speaking from his parents' home in Kennebunkport, Gov. Bush 
  called the scaled-back proposal a victory for "Florida's 
  fight to protect our coastline" and told Bush the words 
  he's going to be hearing a lot for the next few years: not 
  in my back yard. "Any lease sales that do occur in the 181 
  area" — a patch of energy-rich ground in the derrick-free 
  eastern part of the gulf — "will occur off the coast of 
  Alabama, not Florida," he said.

  The newly proposed area extends to 100 miles south of 
  Mobile and gets no closer than about 200 miles west of 
  Tampa. That's actually OK with the folks in Alabama — they 
  already have plenty of drilling platforms out there, as 
  does most of the Gulf coastline stretching west to Texas. 

  And now it's OK with the folks — the Republicans, anyway —   
  in Florida, who are worried about their white sandy beaches 
  and the mammoth tourism industry that grows on them.

  The compromise was made (and somehow you don't expect 
  Norton to be overruled later in the week) to appease the 
  state GOPers whom Bush offended late last month when he 
  came to Florida to strike an environmental pose at the 
  Everglades National Park with a bunch of Democrats.

  ...

  The plan allows Ari Fleischer to say the president's new 
  plan is "environmentally sensitive and balanced" (although 
  that's what they said about the old plan). It allows Jeb 
  Bush, up for a tough re-election in 2002, to imagine that 
  his brother's winning the presidency was actually a good 
  thing for him politically.
Operative phrase: "gets no closer than about 200 miles west of Tampa". A series of bills and regulations like this, some of them simply interpretations, led to an overall incentive to locate platforms further and further away from the coasts, in uncharted waters.

Now, one can claim that tourism was a legitimate reason for these rules. Perhaps. But one must also concede that regulation was a nontrivial factor in forcing these platforms away from the shore.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#102

Ugh, not this again. That would mean that the design of the brain would require hundreds of trillions of bytes of information. Yet the design of the brain (like the rest of the body) is contained in the genome. I believe it was on HN that this discussion came up before, but that's a short sighted way of looking at it. Basically, it doesn't take into account all the interactions of the environment required to turn tha…

Basically, it doesn't take into account all the interactions of the environment required to turn that "source code" into a person.

This is an extremely common, and completely incorrect criticism as applied to AGI complexity estimates.

Here's the way to think of it: the entirety of the information content required to move from non-intelligence to intelligence has to have been figured out some time between single-celled organisms and humans, because the substrate on which our intelligence is implemented literally didn't exist at that point. Which means that any part of the biological machinery that was in place when single-celled organisms ruled the planet does not count towards the complexity of the "intelligence algorithm" itself - it's irrelevant, accidental complexity, not information content that is required to get from "working computer" to "working intelligent computer".

You'll find that almost all of the cellular actions, protein folding, and physics were already working just fine when the single-celled ickies were evolving, so it's all complexity that we can safely ignore, which means we can start the complexity count with DNA. Apart from (IMO) extremely minor epigenetic contributions, the pure-DNA information estimates should provide extremely hard upper bounds on the difficulty of the problem, estimates that we'll probably blow through quite easily once we know what we're doing - evolution rarely finds the optimal solutions to problems, I see no reason to assume that it stumbled across one in this case...

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#103

What are the big advances in linear programming that happened since 1988? As api mentions in the comments here on HN there are areas of work where progress stopped. For example passenger jet speed was once thought to continue at a rapid rate such that LA to Europe flights would be a few hours. Skyscraper height was thought to continue, with advances in various technologies and engineering methods making it desirable.…

Hmmm? Generally agree with the plane flight example, but linear programming seems like a surprisingly bad example to pick. Karmarkar's algorithm has allowed the essential insight of linear programming to be generalized into a programme for optimizing any convex function, subject to convex constraints, over a convex set (see Stanford's EE364).

I assume you are familiar with this as 1988 = date of Fulkerson prize for Karmarkar's work? I guess the point narrowly holds if you're thinking of pure LP rather than general CP. But general CP is really quite a big deal.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#104
post #78
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every creature starts from a single cell. At that point the only difference between a mouse and a human is the DNA, right? Isn't mRNA and tRNA is produced from DNA? It's been a long time since high school. So I don't see why it isn't 50MB.

Every creature starts from a single cell. At that point the only difference between a mouse and a human is the DNA, right? No. That single cell is a working machine of which the DNA is just one component. The proteins which transcribe the DNA, they are in there too, but they are not the DNA. The whole point is that everything else that's in a cell, and there's a lot of "stuff" besides the DNA, has a major effect on w…

Is "Hello World" in C just the one .c file, or do we have to count the standard libraries? How about the hardware designs of the PC running it? If you look at just the .c file, it's a few lines, if you look at everything that's actually required to run it, that's a bit more complicated.

And yet nobody would ever claim that the fundamental minimum complexity of the "Hello, world!" algorithm was more than a few lines of text, because the "important stuff" in that algorithm has nothing to do with all of the irrelevant complexity in the operating system and hardware, all of which could be done in millions of different ways without changing the fundamental algorithmic insights that "Hello, World!" requires.

Yes, there are epigenetic factors that get passed along, but their effects tend to be transient, lost over a few generations at most, adding maybe a handful of tunable bits of information to the genome that can be quick-flipped as the environment demands. I don't know that anyone has ever suggested that any non-trivial amount of data is actually passed millions of generations down the line through this mechanism (keep in mind, to seriously take issue [i.e. beyond a mere factor of 2] with the estimates that you disagree with, you'd need to find more than 25 megabytes of evolutionarily-accessible data that lives somewhere other than DNA), and I'd be extremely interested to know if that was the case. Every evolutionary biologist I know focuses almost exclusively on genetic code as the evolutionary substrate because it's the only available channel that seems reliable enough for information to flow through unmolested over millions of years.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#105
post #87
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that Kurzweil is on rather strong grounds when he argues in effect that 25Mbytes is a safe conservative upper bound on the information needed to specify a human infant brain. The relevant information content of the epigenetic stuff is unlikely to be tens of megabytes, and extremely unlikely to be hundreds of megabytes. Otherwise, it's hard to see how we could've overlooked such a high proportion of non…

It seems to me that Kurzweil is on rather strong grounds when he argues in effect that 25Mbytes is a safe conservative upper bound on the information needed to specify a human infant brain. This is the best I could do: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050111115721.ht... I can't find the actual scientific papers. Anyway, form the article above: The lack of correlation between genome size and an organism’s…

I've already replied to some of this, but re: your mice vs. humans example, my views on this are that the fundamental algorithmic innovation that makes humans so intelligent was already present in mice, and almost all critters in the "bigger than a bug" families. Fundamentally we do process information in the same way as mice, it's merely a matter of turning up some of the intensity knobs (or more likely, adding a few more well-tuned layers to the network that already exists) to let humans take intelligent thought to new realms of utility.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#106
post #14

It's startling to me that everything I do comes from 50 megabytes of source code.

Running on a very complicated instruction set.

Let's say that you saw an executable file weighing in at 25 megabytes of hand-coded assembly running on a modern day Core i7 chip.

Would you really assume that the source code that it would take to write such a program would be over an order of magnitude different if you were targeting a RISC processor instead? Now give yourself access to an expressive compiled language, and estimate how much code it would take. Does the fact that you're targeting RISC even matter anymore, algorithmically?

Unless you're assuming that the biological "instruction set" has some hard coded primitives that make AI an easy problem, it literally doesn't matter at all that the instruction set is complicated (or rather, it matters up to a small constant factor), given that our programming constructs are vastly more powerful than those available to neurons. It's the connectivity algorithms that are important, and biology has absolutely no advantage there.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#107
post #30

Another response: Kurzweil also ignores economics. The advance of technology is driven in part by economic forces. Computing power may stagnate not because we have reached physical limits but because present-day computers are good enough for what 98% of the market wants. I see this trend developing. If anything, the trend in consumer computing is toward less powerful but lower-power and more portable computing device…

Gaming alone will keep driving computer growth for a long long time.

It seems that there is a shift from PC gaming to console gaming... Here's me citing my single data point - Rage. id focused on the console experience above the pc experience, so when you have a predominately pc-driven company focusing on consoles, you feel that the industry is/has changed. That, and that current consoles are half way through their life-cycle according to MS/Sony, so new console designs are not slated until beyond 2015.

Graphics hardware companies like nvidia/amd will continue pushing the envelope though

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#108
post #29

What about energy? It's true that if you look at most areas of technology they are advancing rapidly. Except energy. Energy has stagnated since the 1950s. I'm on the fence on this issue, but there are many very intelligent and knowledgeable people who are predicting a kind of anti-singularity: in the 21st century, fossil fuel depletion will send us way back, perhaps even de-industrialize most societies. Is our civili…

>What about energy?

>It's true that if you look at most areas of technology they are advancing rapidly. Except energy. Energy has stagnated since the 1950s.

This is demonstrably false. Solar power generation, for example, has been enjoyinging the same kind of Moore's Law exponential price/power over the past 15 years that computer processing power has. This is hardly surprising due to the fact that silicon wafer solar panels often use the same semi-conductor suppliers that computer hardware manufacturers do. Newer thin-film solar panels represent a jump in paradigm that promises even greater price performance.

I could have brought up similar points about the progress of wind-power, bio-fuel, or a number of other fields. Energy has anything but stagnated since the 1950s.

tldr: Stay off the peak oil scaremongering sites. They'll blind you.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#109
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember there is 3 main schools of thought regarding the "Singularity" concept, which are more or less compatible. Accelerating change . Basically Kurzweil's view. Exponential improvement of machines, which will eventually reach then exceed human intelligence in every single domain, or something like that. Even horizon . If we ever build something that achieve greater-than-human intelligence, we cannot predict whate…

Also, we should remind ourselves that we live on a planet with limited physical resources. So, assuming that we build something that could exponentially out-smart us, that thing would still need to have access to physical resources for which what is available on this planet might not just be enough. I see it 2 ways: the thing/it/whatever we want to call it either manages to expand from this planet/solar system before…

I agree. Note that it also apply to humanity itself.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#110
post #29

What about energy? It's true that if you look at most areas of technology they are advancing rapidly. Except energy. Energy has stagnated since the 1950s. I'm on the fence on this issue, but there are many very intelligent and knowledgeable people who are predicting a kind of anti-singularity: in the 21st century, fossil fuel depletion will send us way back, perhaps even de-industrialize most societies. Is our civili…

> What about energy? >It's true that if you look at most areas of technology they are advancing rapidly. Except energy. Energy has stagnated since the 1950s. This is demonstrably false. Solar power generation, for example, has been enjoyinging the same kind of Moore's Law exponential price/power over the past 15 years that computer processing power has. This is hardly surprising due to the fact that silicon wafer sol…

Newer thin-film solar panels represent a jump in paradigm

isn't this what Allen said in his critique? scientific achievement doesn't just grow exponentially - there are those "jumps in paradigm" that move us forward, but they're relatively rare and unpredictable.

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