Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

autoweek.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 185 posts

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#81

Post by _ph_ »

krisoft wrote: post #60
mlindner wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVs catch fire drastically less than combustion fueled vehicles because they don't involve explosive materials. Also we ship giant ships full of oil and gas all over the world every single day which is vastly more combustible than batteries.

> Also we ship giant ships full of oil and gas all over the world every single day which is vastly more combustible than batteries. I see what you are saying, but the way we mitigate the fire and explosion hazards on oil and gas transport ships is not really applicable to roll-on/roll-off ships. The oil tankers and LNG ships use a technic called innert atmosphere to protect their cargo from fire hazard. The idea is t…

The problem is, that a lack of oxygene might prevent fires, but not battery shorts and the consequential heat. For treating battery fires, water is the best. Fortunately, water is easy to come by for a ship. So one component to transition car carriers is to add large sprinkler systems, which can quickly cool down a car with a thermal runaway.

Ironically, what is often claimed as a fundamental problem with batteries, their lower energy density than fuel, should make them less dangerous in the case of a disaster in the case of a fire. But the nature of the fire is differently and needs to be handled accordingly. (Of course, shipped cars probably only contain a minimum amount of fuel, but likewise, electric cars would only be minimally charged)

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#82

Post by boundlessdreamz »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #52
boundlessdreamz wrote: post #9

They say not securing the cars properly can cause impacts that cause fire. But these cars are impact tested for passenger safety. The only vulnerability for the battery pack will be a bottom impact which should not occur on Roll on-Roll Off Carrier. Ships do need to adapt their firefighting process for Lithium-Ion batteries. But I'm not convinced about impacts causing fire.

There's a couple videos on YouTube of vehicles on a carrier ship where the vehicles are bash around a fiar bit beyond what might happen in a passenger safety impact test. This one shows the result of a ship passing nearby a Category 3 hurricane and teh aftermath https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7EqGzO_qsc

Wow. That is indeed a great deal more damage than I expected.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#83

Post by wongarsu »

elihu wrote: post #48
audunw wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it hard to put out a fire when EV batteries are involved? If the fire doesn't start in the EV battery why would the battery catch fire? It might sound like an odd question, but we have experience with this in Norway, and the results are counterintuitive. Cars in a large airport parking garage caught fire, and it had many EVs in it. Not a single battery pack caught fire. Only the interior of the EVs did. If the…

One of the problems is that lithium ion batteries can't be discharged fully without destroying them. Effectively, the batteries are a very large energy source that can never be fully turned off. Another problem is that (if I understand correctly) lithium ion battery fires tend to produce their own oxygen. Another problem is that a manufacturing defect in one cell could cause the whole pack to catch on fire. According…

> Putting out an EV battery fire basically entails dumping enormous amounts of water on it

That's a problem fire departments are still trying to adapt to, many resorting to putting out the fire conventionally, then submerging the car in a water-filled container.

But I'm unclear on how that makes the risk profile worse for ships? The initial fire should be easier to contain with EVs than with gasoline cars because EV batteries are much better protected than fuel tanks, and water for cooling affected vehicles for a couple hours is plentiful. It's a ship after all.

Maybe there's a discussion to be had about modifications to fire fighting equipment and staffing because of the different demands, but I don't see how the risk is bigger.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#85

Post by wongarsu »

jbay808 wrote: post #44
throw93232 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVs are safe if you remove batteries. If batteries can not be easily removed and serviced, it is unsafe design. We need basic regulations around safety here.

I'm all for serviceable batteries, but I don't see how it solves the shipping safety issue. So you ship the EVs without batteries, and then... you ship the batteries?

That might actually make sense. The main danger with batteries is thermal runaway, meaning if you keep them cool you can prevent the fire from starting. So what if you shrink-wrap each battery assembly to waterproof it, and ship them submerged in water (or another liquid of your choice). The water should easily absorb the heat from a couple damaged batteries without reaching a temperature that harms the other batteries as long as you leave some room for water circulation.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#86

Post by wongarsu »

bornfreddy wrote: post #24
jhugo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recorder contains alarms and other data as well as the conversations on the bridge. As I understand it, they're like an aviation CVR and FDR but combined. Just like with aircraft accidents, the conversations can provide as much (or sometimes more) value as the data. It gives you insight into decision making, details that may not be recorded in the data ("I was just in area XYZ and I saw sparks coming out of one o…

Curious - why is this recorder not a floating device (which broadcasts its position) so that it could be retrieved easily? It's not like it needs to record the ship's descent to the bottom. Or is the primary function of this device unrelated to sinking?

Most ships sink in relatively shallow water. Broadcasters may fail, especially in the conditions that sink ships. In that case, finding a ship is easier than finding a floating box. It also simplifies the design a lot.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#87

Post by bell-cot »

audunw wrote: post #34
blenderdt wrote: post #22

This article is not about if EVs are safe. It's about the fact that putting out a fire when batteries are involved is hard. Every week there is a fire on a cargo ship. Most are not caused by the cargo. But when the cargo catches fire you want to be able to put it out before the whole ships turns into scrap.

Why is it hard to put out a fire when EV batteries are involved? If the fire doesn't start in the EV battery why would the battery catch fire? It might sound like an odd question, but we have experience with this in Norway, and the results are counterintuitive. Cars in a large airport parking garage caught fire, and it had many EVs in it. Not a single battery pack caught fire. Only the interior of the EVs did. If the…

If neither the EV batteries, nor high-power wiring energized by them, are actually involved in the fire - then you can* put the fire out normally.

Once the fire actually involves "serious" electricity...well, then you've got (1) "can't blow out" birthday candles from Hell, (2) "spray water on it and you may die by electrocution" issues, and (3) the fire has Unlocked a whole new way to Level Up fast, which does not depend upon the traditional "fire triangle" (fuel, oxygen, and heat).

*Or maybe you can't. Ask any fire fighter whether things get magically easy if there's no electricity involved.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#88

Post by themitigating »

londons_explore wrote: post #63
Animats wrote: post #58

I'm not too happy about very large lithium ion batteries as a mass market product in low-end vehicles. Lithium iron phosphate, which doesn't have the thermal runaway problem but stores less energy per kilogram, may be more appropriate there. Both BYD and Tesla are going that route at the low end. Light electric vehicles (bikes, scooters, skateboards) are now causing a sizable number of fires in NYC.[1] It's mostly a…

The 2019 and 2020 fires were mostly because of a 'misunderstanding' between US consumers and Chinese manufacturers. Manufacturers wrote in the product manual 'do not charge device for more than 4 hours'. US consumers left it charging overnight. The devices reliably caught fire when charging for more than about 15 hours. They just didn't have circuitry to stop charging when full. The same used to be the case in the 19…

Source?

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#89

Post by greenthrow »

Animats wrote: post #58

I'm not too happy about very large lithium ion batteries as a mass market product in low-end vehicles. Lithium iron phosphate, which doesn't have the thermal runaway problem but stores less energy per kilogram, may be more appropriate there. Both BYD and Tesla are going that route at the low end. Light electric vehicles (bikes, scooters, skateboards) are now causing a sizable number of fires in NYC.[1] It's mostly a…

Can we stop it with this absurd fear mongering already? There's millions of EVs on the road now. I have had my Leaf for 8 years and keep seeing this same tired FUD online. The incidents of fires from electric cars are extremely low.

The scooters and other cheap vehicles you cite are a separate problem from just being Lithium-Ion batteries. They're cheap procucts with bad electronics and poor protection of the battery. Gasoline powered products of such low quality would be similar fire hazards, if not worse.

Lithium-Ion batteries work fantastic for EVs. My 8 year old, 50k+ mile Leaf still has its origial battery and it still has 100% capacity. Something anti-Lithium-Ion FUD pushers told me was literally impossible.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#90

Post by samatman »

greenthrow wrote: post #89
Animats wrote: post #58

I'm not too happy about very large lithium ion batteries as a mass market product in low-end vehicles. Lithium iron phosphate, which doesn't have the thermal runaway problem but stores less energy per kilogram, may be more appropriate there. Both BYD and Tesla are going that route at the low end. Light electric vehicles (bikes, scooters, skateboards) are now causing a sizable number of fires in NYC.[1] It's mostly a…

Can we stop it with this absurd fear mongering already? There's millions of EVs on the road now. I have had my Leaf for 8 years and keep seeing this same tired FUD online. The incidents of fires from electric cars are extremely low. The scooters and other cheap vehicles you cite are a separate problem from just being Lithium-Ion batteries. They're cheap procucts with bad electronics and poor protection of the battery…

Let me add that such "gasoline powered dangerous cheap products" aren't hypothetical. I remember the era when it was legal to hook a 2 stroke up to a bike or a scooter platform, those things were hideously loud and had plastic exposed bottles full of gas attached to them.

We banned those, we can demand adequate quality control on electric vehicles as well.

Post reply on HN