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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

presidentti.fi

931–940 of 1001 posts

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#931

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO won't accept members that are entangled in regional conflicts which may turn into wars soon (that's why Ukraine couldn't apply anymore after 2014). So Russia's solution would be to start such a conflict, sooner rather than later.

I think the greater reason for hesitating to accept Ukraine up until now would be their still-unstable democracy and high level of corruption. When the war is over, it may be that the new-found unity caused by the external threat will be enough for them to reinforce their institutions significantly. This could reach a point that could ensure lasting democracy while enabling them to properly fight/eliminate most corru…

NATO has no problems with unstable democracies and high levels of corruption. It was founded by the US...

More likely, Ukraine after the war will be a massively destroyed country, with widespread poverty and a constant need for western powers to pour money into - and that breeds corruption. The only way forward - should they survive as a nationstate - would be some kind of grotesquely enlarged Marshall Plan - they would become in the 21th century that what Germany was between 1946 and 1990: A military bridgehead and designated battlefield should Russia get another taste for war, with modest economic growth.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#932

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a proxy war between Russia and NATO That is not how people of Ukraine see this.

Was the American war of independence in 1776 a proxy war between England and France? Probably. But it doesn't change the fact that the colonies wanted to be free.

Some people in the colonies wanted to change who's governing them.

> Sixty percent of the colonists either were neutral or opposed to the Revolution.

From https://www.econlib.org/archives/2016/12/bruce_bueno_de.html

> Bueno de Mesquita claims, quite plausibly, that a huge part of George Washington’s motive for fighting the Revolutionary War was to protect his substantial, and critically placed, landholdings in the Ohio Valley.

> An excerpt about GW’s wealth:

>> His last position, just before becoming President, was President of the Patowmack Canal Company–the Potomac Canal, as we know it, from the Potomac River. What that canal did was bring, make it possible to bring produce from the Shenandoah Valley–which George owned–up to the port in Alexandria, which had been built by Lawrence, by the Ohio Valley Company, in which George had a direct interest, and shipped goods out. So it was a very profitable undertaking–or so he thought it would be, in the long run, for him. And that’s what motivated him. Most people think of Washington as–besides a great hero, which he certainly was–as kind of a gentleman farmer. Economists have estimated the worth in real dollars adjusted for inflation, not appreciated, of George Washington’s estate, in contemporary terms; and it’s about $20 billion dollars. He is by far the wealthiest President. He is the 59th wealthiest person in American history. Three of the American founding fathers are in the list of the top 100 wealthiest Americans in all of history: Hancock, who was wealthier than Washington–made his money smuggling; and Ben Franklin, who was not quite as wealthy, who made his money because he had a monopoly on the printing press. These are the folks who led the Revolution. These were not the downtrodden. These were not the oppressed. These were people who stood to lose huge amounts of wealth because of the King’s policies. And so they fought a Revolution. Which was, by the way, not very popular. Sixty percent of the colonists either were neutral or opposed to the Revolution.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#933
post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I have always understood the concept of proxy war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war there should be another party behind Russia prompting it's actions (since it attacked)

This seems like pedantry. One side can be a proxy while the other side isn't, right?

Yes. And one side can fight a war, while the other side is fighting a special military operation.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#934

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO has really benefited from having Turkey as a member in this war (which is essentially a proxy war between Russia and NATO)-Turkey exercised its right to close the Bosporus to military ships not based there, which prevents Russia from reinforcing its Black Sea fleet. An ex-NATO Turkey might have taken Russia’s side and left the straits open. Closing them disadvantaged Russia far more than anyone else, since Ukrai…

And, Turkey delivers one of the most useful weapons Ukraine has - Bayraktars.

Btw, just to be clear: Bayraktar drones aren't the best drones by a long shot.

What's special is that they are really good drones for their price.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#935

The actions of a Russian leader directly resulting in their border with NATO growing by 1500 km has got to go down as one of the all time great strategic eff-ups. If this whole fiasco does result in WWIII, it'll be because of Finland joining NATO.

> If this whole fiasco does result in WWIII, it'll be because of Finland joining NATO.

No. It will have been because fascist Russia invaded Ukraine.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#936
post #878
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am totally with you. There is so much propaganda in this war it's borderline impossible to get anything but a cloudy view on things. Until recently Ukraine was only in media for their gov breaking human rights and stuff like this, and now it's suddenly the long lost brother we all love so much. Sure RT was full of bullshit, but so are many local papers, Facebook and everything else. People taking clear sides when a…

> There is so much propaganda in this war it's borderline impossible to get anything but a cloudy view on things. No, this is incorrect. You can definitely get a pretty good picture. Saying that “you can only get a cloudy view” is a common Russian propaganda tactic aiming to neutralize the target.

Why is everything that is against the main media russian propaganda these days?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#937

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm biased as someone living much further north, but it seems to me that Sweden and Finland have more strategic geographic importance than Hungary, at least as long as Ukraine doesn't fall completely (ie as long as Russia doesn't get a common border with Hungary). Without a shared border with Russia, Hungary's usefulness in a conflict would be relatively limited for Russia. On the other hand, for it would be hi…

> Sweden and Finland both have long democratic traditions Very different ones. Sweden has been independent forever and a democracy since 1921. Finland was first a part of Sweden, later an autonomous part of Russia. In 1917 it became independent and a democracy. However, a bloody civil war followed. Although it did not last long, consequences in politics and society remained visble for generations. Between 1945 and 19…

By your definition (ie universal suffrage), the USA has only been democratic since 1965. So that makes Sweden's democracy twice as old as the US democracy.

But that is not what I mean when I say "democratic traditions". Especially for countries that introduce democracy gradually and (mostly) peacefully, I consider the whole transition period to be part of those traditions. A country like Sweden had more than 100 years (1809-1921) of public discussions and political manouvering to build up the institutions, culture and education that provide stability, legitimacy and public support to such a system.

Finland underwent a similar development from the end of the Civil War to 1990, which mean that in 1990 the democratic institutions and traditions had already been built.

Other Warzaw pact countries had varying amounts of democratic traditions at that point. Some (like Hungary) had seen little democracy. Others, such as Czechoslovakia had been mostly democratic in the interwar period, while most had seen some democracy and some authoritarian rule in that period.

I would argue that those traditions from 100 years ago play a part, even today. And in the case of Sweden vs Finland vs Hungary, Sweden and Finland both have very strong traditions for democracy (even if the age of those traditions are different), while for countries like Hungary and Ukraine, those traditions are still shaky.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#938
post #847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Finn (so I happen to know _my_ reasons for why I support joining NATO perfectly well), I'm curious: how do you perceive the media narrative to be biased or wrong?

As a Finn, do you think it was smart of Mannerheim to join Nazi Germany against Russia? [EDIT] Appreciate the downvoting, but would appreciate an answer even more.

I'm not super well versed in history, but I don't think Finland had much better options at that time, so yeah, it was kinda smart.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#939
post #864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Finn, I sincerely wish we could come along with our Russian neighbors, but Russia need to change for that to happen. Democracy, human rights and the concepts freedom of speech, freedom of press and a concept of transparent, rule-based society with little corruption are the keywords, but they haven't truly taken root in the Russian culture and system of thought.

Assuming the regime falls and leaves a power vacuum, what do you think the best way to help the people toward that is? My greatest concern is what comes next. The current regime is a kleptocracy, which is awful for the people, but easy to predict and control and siphon cheap natural resources from. They stay in power partly by fear of EU/NATO, but it’s questionable support. Once the kleptocracy is gone, EU/NATO can e…

That sounds like a super hard problem, because USSR already collapsed once, and stuff seemed like it was going to a better direction, but in the end we got Putin. Also, it's in interests of China to keep a some kind of power balance, so at least I think that EU/NATO shouldn't think the fate of Russia as "not my problem", or else China might do some opportunistic power plays.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#940
post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We rely on huge conscription army of 900 000 This is about what the Soviets lost in the first two months of WW2. Considering Russian population of 144 million, half of which are women and half of the rest either too old or too young to fight, the Russian army reserve can be (conservatively) estimated at about 30 million men. With that in mind, in the possible conflict Finland would need to continuously maintain a l…

You have fair points and respect your opinion on this. In my opinion Russia is running out of men willing to fight in Ukraine already. Will to fight is huge one, Soviet union was 50 times bigger than Finland during Winter War, yet they struggled. One reason to apply right now according to some is precisely because Russia is stuck in Ukraine. However myself I don't believe in any real military threat from Russia for F…

> In my opinion Russia is running out of men willing to fight

First of all, let me assume you didn't poll Russians yourself. Consuming media's opinion is fine, provided we take it critically — this helps us distinguish between the facts out of which an opinion was formed later, and an opinion with the facts selected later to support it.

Second: I've been to the military, including active engagements, and in my experience, the troops start to fight because the other option is court-marshal, and they continue to fight because the other option is dying. These two are good motivators to put up the best fight possible in the circumstances. Questions like "is this war justified" or "are we the baddies" usually aren't given much importance on the battlefield; one is busy surviving another day.

> One reason to apply right now according to some is precisely because Russia is stuck in Ukraine.

That's a fair point, and it may get the loss ratio from 30:1 to about 10:1 or so.

Again, tactically it just made the task three times as easy. Strategically, I don't think it turns an unachievable goal into an achievable one.

OTOH, Russia is already eating sanctions, so the cost of the first front has already been paid; the second front may come at a lower cost.

> War in Ukraine seems to be about some sort of obsession in Russia about Ukraine, not about NATO.

OTOH, the war in Georgia wasn't about any obsession Russians have with Georgia. Because there isn't any to speak of. But both can be explained by being about NATO.

> They now seem to be equaling EU with NATO

Here's the thing: NATO is a military alliance weaponized against Russia, so Russia doesn't want to see Ukraine as a part of it. If EU is an economic alliance, Russia wouldn't have any objection to Ukraine in it. But if EU is an economic alliance weaponized against Russia, Russia (again) doesn't want to see Ukraine as a part of it. I think in the last couple of months, as we can see a weaponization of economy, finance, and even McDonalds against Russia (and weaponization of Russian energy against EU), the EU seems more and more weaponized.

> nevertheless it allows flexible interpretation

That's exactly the problem with it. In a case of need, this can be taken to mean anything. Ditto the "you are not alone" comment. Article 5, on the other hand, is very clear.

> Germany has promised even troops

Again, this is vague enough and may mean anything, between one company and the whole Bundeswehr.

> the Continuation War (where Finland allied with Germany) is seen as alliance of necessity

Not many nations are willing to admit mistakes and take guilt. This is not good for nationalism and patriotism. E.g. turks are in a second century to deny Armenian holocaust. Russians "conveniently forget" that in 1939-1941 they have been an ally of Nazis; so much so they count the war (which goes by a different name there) from 1941. Germans are a notable counter-example, but this doesn't come as their choice, does it?

In the hindsight, looking around your neighborhood, Sweden stayed neutral, Norway lost its independence for some years (but got it back), and Finland aligned with Germany. Hence "alliance of necessity" seems to be more of a retroactive explanation that allows everyone to save their face. If by "independence" they mean "independence from the Soviets", then it remains to be explained why the Soviets didn't take that independence at the end of that war. To me, it sounds more plausible that the Soviets were just not interested in governing the Finns.

One final note: the Soviets (and Russians) kept mostly silent for the last 70 years about Finnish alliance with Nazis, because it was more convenient for everyone to forget about that and move on. The Soviet/Russian victory narrative speaks about Germany and Japan, but never Finland. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if Lavrov pulls the Nazi card and waves it in Finland's face.

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