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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

presidentti.fi

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#881

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO is a devensive alliance. It is no threat for a peaceful Russia at all. All else is propaganda. A really democratic Russia may even join NATO some day. (As Western Germany did ten years after the Nazis.)

> NATO is a devensive alliance. I think Serbs may disagree on that. In the end, NATO is the US and it's dependent vassal states. With neighbors like these, I can sympathize with Russia not being too comfortable.

I admit that the NATO operation against Serbia in 1999 was of course not purely devensive with regard to NATO territory (as Kosovo was not a member). Its nature was that of a "humanitarian intervention" in favour of Kosovo; as such it was afterwards acknowledged by the ruling of the International Court of Justice (ICJ).

I personally would have preferred, if the operation had not been carried out under the label of NATO, but instead in the names of the participating countries or something else. Anyway, in later conflicts where NATO was involved it avoided to participate directly under its own name. For instance the operations in Afghanistan, though under offcial NATO leadership, was carried out by an "International Security Assistance Force" (ISAF).

Nevertheless, I still hold that NATO is, at its core, a defensive alliance, since there is no obligation for the members to assist each other in anything else than an unprovoked attack on their territories. Beyond that, NATO structures have been used for various missions, often including non-members -- even Russia itself, as in the NATO-led "Stabilisation Force in Bosnia and Herzegovina" (SFOR) in the 1990s and early 2000s.

Such mission had always been case-by-case decisions, not imposed by the NATO treaty. Furthermore, there have been numerous examples where individual NATO members have been extremely critical of US missions or certain measures. For this reason in particular, I consider the talk of "vassal states" to be quite unobjective.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#882
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can Russia pressure and disrupt the process when NATO members are the ones most afraid of Putin? Finland's doing this only because of Russia's actions. I can't imagine anybody vetoing Finland's membership. In fact, the more the merrier^Hstronger.

NATO won't accept members that are entangled in regional conflicts which may turn into wars soon (that's why Ukraine couldn't apply anymore after 2014). So Russia's solution would be to start such a conflict, sooner rather than later.

I'm Finnish, and I'd like to see them try. (and fail (again))

Imagine diverting 50% of Russian troops from Ukraine, where they are already struggling, to another special operation in Finland. Can't see it happening.

They'd have to actually declare war to conscript the whole population and what nonsense could Putin say to sell that to his people at this point?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#883
post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more about Hungarian domestic politics. The Orban administration has alienated much of the EU leadership, and is (arguably) in violation of the EU treaties. So they're looking to Russia as a backup option, and as an implicit threat to the EU over having their funding cut off.

Hungary is by far a net receiver in the EU budget.

Right, and as I stated above, Hungary can threaten to establish closer ties with Russia if the EU cuts off their funding. This is a way to resist EU demands for internal political reforms and play towards the Fidesz party base.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#884

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reëlection I love the use of the diaeresis.

They are snooty as hell, and I'll forever associate them with The New Yorker[1]. That said, I love them too! Now, if only we could do the same for awry and other words that trip up voracious readers. 1. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-curse-of-...

They were once coming in English-language publications but now are seen in only The New Yorker, The Economist, and one other. Can anyone recall which?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#885
post #837

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the UN could pass a resolution to authorize an invasion (though they can't really enforce anything). It's why the US presented their case against Iraq to the UN 20 years ago. Though in this particular case, the demands Putin made before the invasion, that NATO should promise never to allow Ukraine in, and should abandon eastern Europe entirely, sounded a lot to me like Putin was basically demanding permission…

> I guess the UN could pass a resolution to authorize an invasion Could it? Isn't that in direct opposition to the declared purpose of the UN?

Kinda, but if I'm not mistaken, a military intervention can be declared necessary in cases of genocide, for example. It's not clear whether WMDs would count, but that was Bush's case for the invasion of Iraq.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can do a lot of things. None which are good for Russia but their leaders might perceive this as a direct threat to their sovereignty and take extreme measures. Either they stop this now or it's all over anyway. This is reckless - we need to start a path of de-escalation - give Putin an offramp. Get to back to calm waters. Then let diplomats do their little dances until there is a hopefully more reasonable people…

> give Putin an offramp Thing is, Putin has boxed himself in; he's said publicly that Ukraine is not a thing, that so-called Ukrainians are in fact Russians, and that he aspires to a Peter-the-Great-style Russian empire stretching from Vladivostok to the Baltic. The only "off-ramp" I can see being halfway-acceptable to Putin would be for Ukraine to surrender their claims to Donbas and Crimea, in exchange for Russian…

He's racking up war crimes at alarming speed. How many mass murders can we forgive him?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#887

This makes the formal application next week a foregone conclusion. But, it already was. Perhaps more interesting is that it makes the swedish application almost inevitable as well, and it might happen at the same time.

Why is Sweden always supposed to be "more interesting" than Finland? I mean, I'm a Swede and all (I only live in Finland), but this seems a bit unfair.

Because its less of a foregone conclusion than Finland is. Nothing else (I’d say Finland is now at 100% certainty to join and Sweden at 99%)

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#888
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joining NATO is literally in the Ukrainian constitution. It is not optional, attempting to join is a requirement of the government of Ukraine and not working toward that end would be unconstitutional.

Geez, I'm on Ukraine's side, but "It's in this document so we have no option but to do it" is not a valid argument. For what reason is it in the constitution, when did it get in, then you can make a substantive argument. What next, should I write "the bank has to give me $1M" on a piece of paper and show it to the bank teller?

I'm sorry but your analogy does not hold.

The document states that the government is to work towards joining NATO. The document in question happens to be law in Ukraine. If they don't work that direction they're breaking the law. If Ukrainian's don't like that they can amend their constitution, but it is unfair to post what I replied to without recognizing the fact that this is a legal duty of government officials of Ukraine.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#889
post #305
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has been threatening Finland/Sweden with consequences for years. As the Finnish PM mentioned in his speech with Boris Johnson a few days ago, Russia has shown with Ukraine that complying with Russia's threats is not a guarantee that the future will be consequence-free.

> Russia has shown with Ukraine that complying with Russia's threats is not a guarantee that the future will be consequence-free. When did Ukraine actually comply with any threat from Russia since at least the Maidan Revolution??

[deleted]

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#890
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joining NATO is literally in the Ukrainian constitution. It is not optional, attempting to join is a requirement of the government of Ukraine and not working toward that end would be unconstitutional.

> Tell them that if their president didn't say he wanted to join NATO Ukraine already applied to NATO. NATO's adherence to it's own acceptance rules are purely political. NATO did not accept Ukraine's application because there were lands in dispute - with Russia - which disqualifies you from membership until it's resolved. NATO obv does not want to accept new members that immediately put the whole organization in a c…

I don't disagree with any of this but none of it disagrees with my position, either. It's still a goal they're obligated, legally, to work towards as a government.

At the moment that means expelling Russian invaders first, because NATO will not accept countries in the middle of a territorial dispute with Russia, for obvious reasons.

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