Live data from Hacker News

DeepMind: A Generalist Agent

deepmind.com

61–70 of 345 posts

Re: DeepMind: A Generalist Agent

#61
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assumption of will is unfounded, scientifically speaking. Your entire argument is philosophical, not scientific. The subjective experience of free will is in no way unrefutable proof that will is required for intelligence.

Do you love? Do you dance? Do you desire? Do you rage? Do you weep? Do you choose? Every moment of your existence you exert your will on the world. A denial of will is a denial of humanity. I want nothing of a science that would do such a thing.

This points out something very related that I think about a lot - can you prove to me that you do any of those things? Can I prove to you that I do any of those things? That either of us have a will? When would you be able to believe a machine could have these things?

In Computing the Mind by Shimon Edelman is a concept that I've come to agree with, which is at some point you need to take a leap of faith in matters such as consciousness, and I would say it extends to will as well (to me what you've described are facets of human consciousness). We take this leap of faith every time we interact with another human; we don't need them to prove they're conscious or beings with a will of their own, we just accept that they possess these things without a thought. If machines gain some form of sentience comparable to that of a human, we'll likely have to take that leap of faith ourselves.

That said, to claim that will is necessary for intelligence is a very human-centered point of view. Unless the goal is specifically to emulate human intelligence/consciousness (which is a goal for some but not all), "true" machine intelligence may not look anything like ours, and I don't think that would necessarily be a bad thing.

Re: DeepMind: A Generalist Agent

#62
post #58
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical because we are building black boxes. How do you fix something you can't reason about? These billion parameter boxes are outside the reach of your everyday developers. In terms of cost of propping up the infrastructure makes them tenable only for megacorps. Most of us aren't moving goal posts, but are very much skeptic at the things we are being oversold on. I personally think we are still far away from…

> I'm skeptical because we are building black boxes. Just want to point out that you are also a blackbox. And if you are going to say that you are not a blackbox because you can explain your reasoning, just know that some AIs already do that too.

To be fair, his point is you can't fix a black box and the human mind is still more a discipline of philosophy than modern science.

Re: DeepMind: A Generalist Agent

#64
post #22

Slowly but surely we're moving towards general AI. There is a marked split across general society and even ML/AI specialists between those who think that we can achieve AGI using current methods and those who dismiss the possibility. This has always been the case, but what is remarkable about today's environment is that researchers keep making progress contrary to the doubter's predictions. Each time this happens, th…

The closer we get, the more alarming the alignment problem becomes. https://intelligence.org/2017/10/13/fire-alarm/ Even people like Eric Schmidt seem to downplay it (in a recent podcast with Sam Harris) - just saying “smart people will turn it off”. If it thinks faster than us and has goals not aligned with us this is unlikely to be possible. If we’re lucky building it will have some easier to limit constraint like…

Even if it doesn't have goals and it just a tool-AI, if a human operator asks it to destroy humanity it will comply as programmed. Current level AI is about average human level in hundreds of tasks and exceeding human level in a few.

Re: DeepMind: A Generalist Agent

#65
post #22

Slowly but surely we're moving towards general AI. There is a marked split across general society and even ML/AI specialists between those who think that we can achieve AGI using current methods and those who dismiss the possibility. This has always been the case, but what is remarkable about today's environment is that researchers keep making progress contrary to the doubter's predictions. Each time this happens, th…

How do we prepare for super human intelligence? Do you think that the AI will also develop its own motives ? Or will it just be a tool that we're able to plug into and use for ourselves?

The danger is really us, the ones who might task the AI to do something bad. Even if the AI has no ill intentions it might do what is asked.

Re: DeepMind: A Generalist Agent

#66
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we prepare for super human intelligence? Do you think that the AI will also develop its own motives ? Or will it just be a tool that we're able to plug into and use for ourselves?

I think AI will largely remain an input-output tool. We still need to prepare ourselves for the scenario where for most input-output tasks, AI will be preferable to humans. Science is an interesting field to focus on. There is so much scientific literature for most fields that it is now impossible to keep up with the latest literature. AI will be able to parse literature and generate hypotheses at a much greater scal…

I don’t know why you think that. As soon as it is viable, some unscrupulous actor will surely program an AI with the goal of “make money and give it to me”, and if that AI is able to self modify, well that’s all that’s required for that experiment to end badly because decent AI alignment is basically intractable.

Re: DeepMind: A Generalist Agent

#67
post #47
post #22

Slowly but surely we're moving towards general AI. There is a marked split across general society and even ML/AI specialists between those who think that we can achieve AGI using current methods and those who dismiss the possibility. This has always been the case, but what is remarkable about today's environment is that researchers keep making progress contrary to the doubter's predictions. Each time this happens, th…

we have been using ML to solve useful problems in biology for more than 3 decades. However, it was usually called "advanced statistics and probability on large data sets" because, to be honest, that's what most modern ML is.

> advanced statistics

There's an emergent quality to AI models. Not all statistical models can dream pandas on the moon or solve hundreds of tasks, even without specific training.

Re: DeepMind: A Generalist Agent

#68
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm skeptical because we are building black boxes. Just want to point out that you are also a blackbox. And if you are going to say that you are not a blackbox because you can explain your reasoning, just know that some AIs already do that too.

To be fair, his point is you can't fix a black box and the human mind is still more a discipline of philosophy than modern science.

Maybe we'll end up creating an artificial mind.

Re: DeepMind: A Generalist Agent

#69
post #44
post #22

Slowly but surely we're moving towards general AI. There is a marked split across general society and even ML/AI specialists between those who think that we can achieve AGI using current methods and those who dismiss the possibility. This has always been the case, but what is remarkable about today's environment is that researchers keep making progress contrary to the doubter's predictions. Each time this happens, th…

You complain that the bar keeps getting raised. Is there some good write up by someone who believes AGI is possible and how it might look like? I.e. what is your definition of the bar where you will say 'now, this is AGI'?

I'm still fine with using the Turing Test (now >70 years old) for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

I guess a key stipulation there is an interrogator who know what they're doing, but an AI that can fool an experienced interrogator would be worthy of the AGI title to me.

Re: DeepMind: A Generalist Agent

#70
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you love? Do you dance? Do you desire? Do you rage? Do you weep? Do you choose? Every moment of your existence you exert your will on the world. A denial of will is a denial of humanity. I want nothing of a science that would do such a thing.

This points out something very related that I think about a lot - can you prove to me that you do any of those things? Can I prove to you that I do any of those things? That either of us have a will? When would you be able to believe a machine could have these things? In Computing the Mind by Shimon Edelman is a concept that I've come to agree with, which is at some point you need to take a leap of faith in matters s…

Not just consciousness- all of science requires a leap of faith- the idea that human brains can comprehend general universal causality. There is no scientific refutation for Descartes' Great Deceiver- it's taken as a given that humans could eventually overcome any https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon through their use of senses and rationality on their own.

I have long worked on the assumption that we can create intelligences that no human could deny have subjective agency, while not being able to verify that. I did some preliminary experiments on idle cycles on Google's internal TPU networks (IE, large-scale brain sims using tensorflow and message passing on ~tens of pods simultaneously) that generated interesting results but I can't discuss them until my NDA expires in another 9 years.

Post reply on HN