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Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the heart of our galaxy

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Re: Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the heart of our galaxy

#62
post #41
post #32

I find the whole thing amazing and captivating - yet the image is … huh … slightly underwhelming. It looks like some gaussian blurred random image. I wish it could be the kind of crisp image JWST ‘sent’. It’s difficult to force oneself to not romanticise these un-visible things based on artists visualisation we got accustomed to.

It's actually one of the sharpest images ever made - in terms of angular resolution. The Sag.A* ring is about 51 microarcseconds in diameter. The EHT has a theoretical resolution of ~25 micro arcseconds. For comparison NirCam on Webb has a pixel resolution of 70 miliarcseconds (about 2800 times worse resolution than EHT). The reason it looks blurry is that the black hole features are close to the resolution of EHT so…

I also want to point out that the mass around Sagittarius A* is rapidly shifting which makes getting a sharp image still harder. From the NYT:

Sagittarius A*, the black hole in the Milky Way galaxy, is a harder target. It is less than one-thousandth the mass and size of the M87 hole and, therefore, evolves a thousand times faster. The M87 black hole barely budges during a weeklong observing run, but Sagittarius A* changes its appearance as often as every five minutes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/12/science/black-hole-photo....

Re: Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the heart of our galaxy

#63
post #32

I find the whole thing amazing and captivating - yet the image is … huh … slightly underwhelming. It looks like some gaussian blurred random image. I wish it could be the kind of crisp image JWST ‘sent’. It’s difficult to force oneself to not romanticise these un-visible things based on artists visualisation we got accustomed to.

It reminds me of all the hype and exuberance around the "first ever picture of a black hole". An achievement worthy of being lauded, for sure, but something just felt so artificial about the coverage. And truth be told, the photo itself was underwhelming in light of how incredible it was made out to be.

Re: Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the heart of our galaxy

#64
post #10

One of the findings they announced at the press conference is that the spin of the black hole is not aligned with the galactic plane but is tilted "towards us" so that it is viewed face on. How unexpected is that?

For a small-mass central black hole (CBH), the spin-spin coupling of the CBH and the bulk matter of a relatively small and sparse galaxy is so small that it the orientation of the spin axis is almost unconstrained. That from Earth we look down on the CBH's north pole (right-hand-rule: the bright features appear to circulate counter-clockwise, and there is decent evidence in them that the black hole's spin is in the same direction (i.e., the accretion structure is prograde rather than retrograde)) is probably just a funny coincidence.

M87 and its CBH M87* are much more massive than the Milky Way and its respective CBH Sgr A*, but it M87 a giant elliptical galaxy that is almost circular (as far as we can tell from the highly random orbital motions of constituent parts like hydrogen and molecular gas clouds, resolvable globular and other star clusters, and so forth). So there is essentially no (bulk) galactic spin for M87* to couple to. M87*, the black hole, has significant spin however.

For a galaxy with strong axisymmetry to the point of a thin disc, there are still open questions about spin-spin coupling with a sufficiently massive CBH, under the assumption that the CBH spin and the galactic spin were identical in the early universe and that the CBH spin has not become perturbed (e.g. by black hole mergers, which may change the spin parameter, which translates to a CBH spin axis unaligned with the galactic spin axis, or a counter-rotating CBH, or some combination), and that the galactic spin has not become perturbed (by close-encounters or mergers with other galaxies). There are additional reasons why a jet and counter-jet may not trace out the extended spin axis of a CBH.

Finally, the spin-spin coupling is probably driven by the galactic spin imposing its "will" upon the CBH, rather than the other way around, because of the large mass-ratio and the distribution of mass at significant spatial remove from the CBH. However, there is a chicken/egg conundrum for very large CBHs, since we don't know if they become so huge (principally) primordially or by hierarchical mergers or by some other mechanism. The biggest CBHs may drive the initial angular momentum in the early protogalaxy, and then both the CBH and the later-time bulk galaxy will influence each others' spins. That is, the spin-spin can be correlated without any significant direct linking (in terms of forcing a drifting spin to realign), because the coupling can be arbitrarily weak.

So, we should not be surprised by central black holes spinning differently from their enclosing galaxies. But, we have a lot to learn about your question from further observations of CBHs!

Re: Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the heart of our galaxy

#65

Very interesting. The previously-released M87 image had just a single "shadow", but this one (of Sag A*) has multiple bright "lumps". Maybe it's in the linked papers which I haven't gotten to yet, but why the difference? Is it due to the observation method or does it reflect a real difference? Or both?

Yeah I was wondering the same. From the M87's images I understood that the bright part of the ring was moving towards us, that's why it was brighter. But with this explanation, how can there be 3 bright lumps then on Sag A's ring ..

Re: Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the heart of our galaxy

#66
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious but why?

Quantum Physics and General Relativity make different predictions in specific circumstances which are beyond our ability to test to figure out which one is wrong. They can't both be perfectly correct. But in every test we can make, both seem to model reality really well. The best place to look for new data where we might find reality disagreeing with either model is in the extreme parts of the universe, like black ho…

Relatedly, before general relativity, people already knew something was wrong with Newton's theory of gravity from observing the orbit of Mercury, which didn't follow the theory accurately. At that time Mercury, being so close to the Sun, was an extreme condition that showed the flaws in the theory.

The fact that general relativity continues to hold up to every observation we can make is remarkable.

Re: Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the heart of our galaxy

#67
post #5

> “We were stunned by how well the size of the ring agreed with predictions from Einstein’s Theory of General Relativity," And ten thousand physicists sighed disappointingly.

Any evidence supporting general relativity at these scales is presumably also evidence in favour of dark matter actually being matter, as opposed to gravitational theory needing modification. Seems like we can still learn quite a bit from ruling out alternatives, even if it's not the quick answer we might like.

Re: Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the heart of our galaxy

#68
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately JWST won’t come close to being able to resolve Sgr A*. They measured its diameter in micro-arcseconds, whereas JWST’s limiting resolution will be measured in 10s-100s of milli-arcseconds.

And would it even be able to see past the dust clouds and stars and stuff in front of it? I mean if they could, they could do another longer term observation like from that clip where you can see stars swishing around it.

JWST is an infrared scope pretty much specifically so it can see through dust clouds.

Re: Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the heart of our galaxy

#69
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually one of the sharpest images ever made - in terms of angular resolution. The Sag.A* ring is about 51 microarcseconds in diameter. The EHT has a theoretical resolution of ~25 micro arcseconds. For comparison NirCam on Webb has a pixel resolution of 70 miliarcseconds (about 2800 times worse resolution than EHT). The reason it looks blurry is that the black hole features are close to the resolution of EHT so…

I also want to point out that the mass around Sagittarius A* is rapidly shifting which makes getting a sharp image still harder. From the NYT: Sagittarius A*, the black hole in the Milky Way galaxy, is a harder target. It is less than one-thousandth the mass and size of the M87 hole and, therefore, evolves a thousand times faster. The M87 black hole barely budges during a weeklong observing run, but Sagittarius A* ch…

Wow, that's incredible. Is that because of all the material the black hole is "devouring?"
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