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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#531

Post by juve1996 »

logifail wrote: post #162
sph wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can Russia pressure and disrupt the process when NATO members are the ones most afraid of Putin? Finland's doing this only because of Russia's actions. I can't imagine anybody vetoing Finland's membership. In fact, the more the merrier^Hstronger.

> In fact, the more the merrier^Hstronger Umm ... wasn't that what people thought of the alliances and treaties[0] just before the First World War? [0] https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-you-need-to-know-about-p...

Sure it's the same if you ignore literally everything else about the two conflicts.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#532

Post by ethbr0 »

CRConrad wrote: post #359
klibertp wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I'm not American, and don't care that much. I was referring to this part: > I'm just tired of the USA paying for everything when we don't have the money. Which seems to be one of the things that made the previous President the President.

Funny thing is, the USA isn't "paying for everything". The people who whine about NATO members "not paying enough" seem to think all the other NATO countries have got rid of their armies and are defended only by US troops permanently stationed there. That's not how it works: They all have their own defense forces. Trump was whining that those are not big enough (and he was probably even [at least mainly] right there)…

From first principles:

Some sized and equipped military force is required for a credible NATO defense from Russia.

The origins of that force's components is a zero sum game. If they don't come from one country, they must come from another.

The US currently spends ~3.5% of GDP on its military. The EU (in total) spends ~1.6%. I believe the UK is at ~2.5%. The NATO target is 2% of GDP. See specifically, graphs 2-4: https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2021/6/pd...

If the US spent less, it's possible Europeans would not choose to make up the difference. But if they didn't, they'd certainly be less secure.

It's a complicated topic, but the idea that the US is paying for more European defense than Europeans is well-supported.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#533

Post by cromka »

hugg wrote: post #368
omega3 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should be afraid of them? If all the war crimes, targeting of infrastructure, civilians, hospitals, forced deportation, looting, torture, setting up of artificial breakaway states hasn't so far convinced you then I'm afraid nothing ever will.

And it still seems realistic to you they will somehow invade Sweden by land and do these things?

So you're willing to take your chances because the bully beat up someone else first?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#535

Post by supergirl »

seems like the absolute worst time to join NATO. Russia is as close to war with NATO as ever and now they decide it's a good time to join? they may find themselves at war the day after joining. Russia is way more closer to war with NATO than it was with Finland.

on the other hand, they don't have much choice. Finland was not neutral, just not formally in NATO. they were anti-Russia independents. but now things got serious so they run for shelter. basically they waited until the last moment to formally join NATO, but they were always kind of aligned with NATO. same for Sweden. for example, they both sent military aid to Ukraine I believe, so it's clear they are aligned with NATO. might as well sign the paper.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#536

Post by MomoXenosaga »

suture wrote: post #329
klibertp wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I'm not American, and don't care that much. I was referring to this part: > I'm just tired of the USA paying for everything when we don't have the money. Which seems to be one of the things that made the previous President the President.

I’m an American. For many decades the idea that the U.S. props up the rest of world at the expense of focusing on our people has been a strong one. It was very strong going into the 80s but has becomes less so since then. It is still used from time to time galvanize right leaning people. There is a strong isolationist bent within the U.S. too. I do believe Trump was correct to criticize the lack of defense spending b…

European countries will only spend money on defense when they calculate it as a necessity. During the cold war the Netherlands had a tank division stationed in Germany waiting for the Red Army to invade.

And I want to emphasize DEFENSE. Not "invade other countries in trillion dollar regime change operations". It was US Congress that signed off on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#537

Post by tsimionescu »

baud147258 wrote: post #156
nonameking2026 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can do a lot of things. None which are good for Russia but their leaders might perceive this as a direct threat to their sovereignty and take extreme measures. Either they stop this now or it's all over anyway. This is reckless - we need to start a path of de-escalation - give Putin an offramp. Get to back to calm waters. Then let diplomats do their little dances until there is a hopefully more reasonable people…

If I were living in Finland, I'd feel safer (against external aggression) if the country was in NATO than if it wasn't.

Perhaps, but trying to become a NATO member has a much higher chance of getting you embroiled in a war than not doing that.

This continued escalation can't help but lead to nuclear war, our leaders are playing an extremely dangerous game of chicken.

If anything, Russia's botched invasion of Ukraine should show other countries in the region that there isn't so much to fear from them, and that NATO can be counted for help even without having to risk triggering Article 5 against a nuclear power.

And make no mistake: a hot NATO-Russia war is the worse possible outcome for everyone involved. If it came to that, it would be objectively better to become a vassal of Russia than living through a nuclear war, for the vast majority of the population.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#538

Post by selimthegrim »

skissane wrote: post #382
xdennis wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Romania and Bulgaria only have access to the Black Sea. My understanding is that if a Romanian warship goes to a military exercise in the Mediterranean, then it won't be allowed to return, just like Russian ships can't.

Sources are inconsistent on this topic – some say Turkey has closed the Straits to all warships, others say it has only closed the ships to the official parties to the conflict, which is currently only Russia and Ukraine (arguably Belarus too, but that's irrelevant to this, since as a landlocked state they have no navy), and that other naval ships, including Bulgarian and Romanian, are still allowed through, so long…

Isn’t there a Danube Convention? Couldn’t Romania retaliate now that USSR is no longer party?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#539

Post by hackerfromthefu »

CRConrad wrote: post #359
klibertp wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I'm not American, and don't care that much. I was referring to this part: > I'm just tired of the USA paying for everything when we don't have the money. Which seems to be one of the things that made the previous President the President.

Funny thing is, the USA isn't "paying for everything". The people who whine about NATO members "not paying enough" seem to think all the other NATO countries have got rid of their armies and are defended only by US troops permanently stationed there. That's not how it works: They all have their own defense forces. Trump was whining that those are not big enough (and he was probably even [at least mainly] right there)…

>> But until that happens, this "missing money" doesn't actually come out of any US budget; it's just not being spent at all.

(Fyi Not American.) That seems wrong, because America does already spend so much on their Military budget to have a 'preventative' presence plus standing force ready to respond. They spend each year keeping that force built, trained, operating etc .. regardless of if it's used.

That seems pretty obvious too, I don't know if your argument was made in good faith?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#540

Post by doikor »

herbst wrote: post #250
phatfish wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really need to ask why? Because Ukraine is on the doorstep of Europe, that's why Europeans care more, and by proxy the US. As for Iraq, yes people did care, there were large protests in London and Tony Blair is still hated by the general public in the UK. I don't know the real feeling in the US. The UK government didn't listen because Tony wanted his ego boost on the world stage. The only NATO backed war of th…

> Because Ukraine is on the doorstep of Europe, that's why Europeans care more, and by proxy the US. But only since Russia started invading. When news about Ukraine were still all about their corrupt government, breaking human rights, their horrible prisons and more like that nobody thought Ukraine to to 'close' or anything. It's obvious the whole perception of Ukraine just suddenly changed because Russia is the bad…

> But only since Russia started invading. When news about Ukraine were still all about their corrupt government, breaking human rights, their horrible prisons and more like that nobody thought Ukraine to to 'close' or anything.

But you do realize that a large part of these problems stem from the corruption and the main source of that in Ukraine was (is?) ungodly amounts of money coming in from Putins regime to bribe the shit out of everyone (mainly in the form of selling gas/oil to some local oligarch way under market price and which they then sell at market price). This whole conflict started when the Ukraine people decided to say fuck this and kicked out Putins friend out from power and Russia retaliated by taking over Crimea and give money/weapons to the seperatist in Donetsk and Luhansk.

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