When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps • Hacker News Board

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#161

Post by tshaddox » Thu, May 12, 2022, 5:33 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #106

Spellman wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. I've often seen Chesterson's Fence trotted out as an argument to never change anything. Or at least place onerous burden of proof on the new change to prove itself. However, some times the circumstances that gave rise to the fence are gone! You still need to do the work to show that this is true, or at least some best effort. But if after a cursory check there is no compelling reason, retorting "ah but there may…

I think plenty of people err on either side of this question. It's an eternal controversy, and as you say, there is a balance. That having been said, I also think you're underestimating the degree to which it's easy to verify the value of legacy practices. https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret... Search for the phrase "And then there’s manioc. This is a tuber native to the Americas." Read the e…

All those anecdotes are cute, but has there been any attempt at systematically determining whether the net result of all instances of a particular culture’s practices which are justified by “do it this way because it has always been done this way”? This seems difficult to analyze, but it’s critical to the validity of any argument that invokes these cute anecdotes. Isn’t it plausible that generations of repressing people’s curiosity in experimenting with food preparation had a net negative effect?

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#162

Post by thriftwy » Thu, May 12, 2022, 7:46 AM UTC

sgjohnson wrote: post #148

thriftwy wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, USSR had a pact with Nazi Germany. Until it hadn't. So?

So USSR was exactly as guilty in WW2 happening as Nazi Germany. USSR was not one bit better.

And why are we discussing this different topic out of sudden?

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#163

Post by krzyk » Thu, May 12, 2022, 1:01 PM UTC

sgjohnson wrote: post #148

thriftwy wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, USSR had a pact with Nazi Germany. Until it hadn't. So?

So USSR was exactly as guilty in WW2 happening as Nazi Germany. USSR was not one bit better.

USSR was actually much worse than Nazi Germany. They had much more time to do bad things. And even if we only account WWII timeline, people in territories between Germany and USSR preferred to be conquered by Germans, purely because their soldiers were more disciplined than the ones from USSR (which were just peasants, frequently even without boots, equipped with weapons).

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#164

Post by david422 » Thu, May 12, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

bag_boy wrote: post #120

fsckboy wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> heart-breakingly tragic African Americans are glad to be living in the US, and they're deeply enmeshed in the fabric of American society. Slavery was a bad part of history (and of the present where it still exists) but it's not more "heart-breakingly tragic" that a large number of African Americans today live on fertile land in the Old South any moreso than a large number of Aficans living on all sorts of land incl…

I did not know that African Americans got together, had a vote, and decided that they’re happy to live in the US!

I wonder if we'll ever get to the point where we can just refer to people as Americans, instead of just some .

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#165

Post by thriftwy » Thu, May 12, 2022, 1:32 PM UTC

krzyk wrote: post #163

sgjohnson wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So USSR was exactly as guilty in WW2 happening as Nazi Germany. USSR was not one bit better.

USSR was actually much worse than Nazi Germany. They had much more time to do bad things. And even if we only account WWII timeline, people in territories between Germany and USSR preferred to be conquered by Germans, purely because their soldiers were more disciplined than the ones from USSR (which were just peasants, frequently even without boots, equipped with weapons).

> people in territories between Germany and USSR preferred to be conquered by Germans

Dear krzyk! Do you consider jews people?

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#166

Post by krzyk » Thu, May 12, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

thriftwy wrote: post #165

krzyk wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USSR was actually much worse than Nazi Germany. They had much more time to do bad things. And even if we only account WWII timeline, people in territories between Germany and USSR preferred to be conquered by Germans, purely because their soldiers were more disciplined than the ones from USSR (which were just peasants, frequently even without boots, equipped with weapons).

> people in territories between Germany and USSR preferred to be conquered by Germans Dear krzyk! Do you consider jews people?

Are you a Jew that was there during the start of WW2?

Russians (USSR, potato-potato) at that time were exterminating most of people that had any kind of education - because those were potential "traitors".

Most Jews were intelligence class, which was considered enemy of the "working class".

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#167

Post by klausjensen » Thu, May 12, 2022, 2:11 PM UTC

krzyk wrote: post #163

sgjohnson wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So USSR was exactly as guilty in WW2 happening as Nazi Germany. USSR was not one bit better.

USSR was actually much worse than Nazi Germany. They had much more time to do bad things. And even if we only account WWII timeline, people in territories between Germany and USSR preferred to be conquered by Germans, purely because their soldiers were more disciplined than the ones from USSR (which were just peasants, frequently even without boots, equipped with weapons).

If you focus only on the non-jewish civilian population of Poland, then I guess you could argue Soviet was worse... But in any larger context, Nazi-Germany were much, much worse.

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#168

Post by walrusfromspace » Thu, May 12, 2022, 2:37 PM UTC

krzyk wrote: post #163

sgjohnson wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So USSR was exactly as guilty in WW2 happening as Nazi Germany. USSR was not one bit better.

USSR was actually much worse than Nazi Germany. They had much more time to do bad things. And even if we only account WWII timeline, people in territories between Germany and USSR preferred to be conquered by Germans, purely because their soldiers were more disciplined than the ones from USSR (which were just peasants, frequently even without boots, equipped with weapons).

Which is tragic considering that the Nazis did not see any future for those people other than dead or slaves.

Somehow people forget that the Nazis wanted to kill or enslave all Slavs[1] within their "lebensraum" territories.

[1] They also considered Estonians and Finns as "Mongoloids" and as such subhuman although both were elevated to "Aryan" status following the winter war.

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#169

Post by philwelch » Thu, May 12, 2022, 4:15 PM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #161

philwelch wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think plenty of people err on either side of this question. It's an eternal controversy, and as you say, there is a balance. That having been said, I also think you're underestimating the degree to which it's easy to verify the value of legacy practices. https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret... Search for the phrase "And then there’s manioc. This is a tuber native to the Americas." Read the e…

All those anecdotes are cute, but has there been any attempt at systematically determining whether the net result of all instances of a particular culture’s practices which are justified by “do it this way because it has always been done this way”? This seems difficult to analyze, but it’s critical to the validity of any argument that invokes these cute anecdotes. Isn’t it plausible that generations of repressing peo…

Interesting point. I think you could characterize "being conquered by the Portuguese in the first place" as a negative outcome, so there's a plausible argument that the Portuguese were more willing to embrace innovation, which is how they gained the ability to conquer the Tukanoans in the first place.

On the other hand, if you dig into the history of colonization, indigenous cultures had a massive home field advantage, and it was common for Western colonies to utterly fail, either starving to death in the same lands that indigenous people were able to survive in or in some cases, completely defecting from their original culture and joining indigenous populations.

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#170

Post by thriftwy » Thu, May 12, 2022, 4:29 PM UTC

krzyk wrote: post #166

thriftwy wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people in territories between Germany and USSR preferred to be conquered by Germans Dear krzyk! Do you consider jews people?

Are you a Jew that was there during the start of WW2? Russians (USSR, potato-potato) at that time were exterminating most of people that had any kind of education - because those were potential "traitors". Most Jews were intelligence class, which was considered enemy of the "working class".

Imagine you are a Jew. Would you prefer to stay in the Soviet occupation zone and try your luck, or would you choose the Nazi zone (because what can go wrong, isn't it in the EU).

Indeed, many of eastern european countries used the period of Nazi occupation to get rid of as many jews and gypsies as possible. I'm not going to point fingers but you should double-check your history.