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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#481

Post by fsloth »

calf wrote: post #388
fsloth wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Manufacturing Consent! Even though I don't agree with it's implied worldview I enjoy Chomsky's skill as an eloquent polemiscist. But Chomsky does not really understand the world outside US. I am a Finn and I can guarantee Chomsky does not help you in understanding what happened here. We share 1500km border of Russia. We feel the geopolitic shifts in our backbones. Almost every finnish male regardless of wealth…

I see this point a lot but I don't understand it. I'm of both Taiwanese and Hong Kong ethnicity. The world has already seen what China did to Hong Kong's autonomy. But Chomsky's essays and lectures have helped me understand my old countries' political issues more clearly than many other sources, even when he isn't directly talking about Asia. So I don't understand the frequent assertion that Chomsky's arguments or hi…

Chomsky starts from the position that the general population is ignorant of history and politics and can be programmed by the elites to what ever worldview.

He does not start from the position that an individual voter would have skin in the game, or understand the consequences of political and economic actions.

Ukrainians feel in their guts their country is being invaded by an genocidal adversary. They are not driven from their homes by US capitalist fed propaganda, but by russain missiles and tanks, they take up arms not because the conscription service ran it's ad targeting the poor and the unemployed, but because their home is invaded.

Chomsky simply does not comprehend a situation where he himself would wake up one morning, take his rifle and go defend his country with the local banker, the baker and the taxi driver.

I.e. he does not understand when masses actually act out of their own volition to do something. Political events to him seem always to be a "nefarious game programmed by US capitalists to oppress the ploretariat" unless it's something directly hurting US corporate interests and then it's always universally good.

In US this view is likely more correct than not as the financial oligarchy is pretty savvy there and does play it's own game. The world and the rules can be quite different outside US.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#482

Post by doikor »

hugg wrote: post #368
omega3 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should be afraid of them? If all the war crimes, targeting of infrastructure, civilians, hospitals, forced deportation, looting, torture, setting up of artificial breakaway states hasn't so far convinced you then I'm afraid nothing ever will.

And it still seems realistic to you they will somehow invade Sweden by land and do these things?

The invasion of Sweden would most likely be limited to taking over Gotland to control the Baltic sea north of it.

(Think Crimea not the full scale invasion of Ukraine)

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#483

Post by baq »

ssl232 wrote: post #52

Usual caveats that I'm not a diplomat, don't have all the facts, etc etc., but this doesn't seem like a rational move for Finland or NATO. The UK just yesterday agreed to protect Finland in the event of an attack, and the UK's involvement would likely bring in many other NATO powers anyway, so arguably they're getting protection they'd otherwise have to pay for for free. And actually, officially joining NATO will hav…

> It's a fact that Russia feels threatened by having NATO on their border.

Yes, but not in the sense they want you to think. Russia feels threatened that it won't be able to invade freely wherever and whenever it wishes. Since they can't do diplomacy without holding a gun somewhere close by, it makes them weaker.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#484

Post by CRConrad »

Archelaos wrote: post #151
alkonaut wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has argued that having NATO on its borders is a threat. Talk about missiles within range of Moscow and so on. Obviously these comments make no sense. But Russian domestic politics is always using a narrative of being a victim and having risk of being invaded. The Second World War doesn’t exist in Russian storytelling. The great patriotic war on the other hand, conveniently started in the 40s. The Finnish borde…

NATO is a devensive alliance. It is no threat for a peaceful Russia at all. All else is propaganda. A really democratic Russia may even join NATO some day. (As Western Germany did ten years after the Nazis.)

But, just like with Germany, it would take some "de-Nazification" (de-totalitarianization) first... And I'm not talking of Ukraine here.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#485

Post by ethbr0 »

skissane wrote: post #382
xdennis wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Romania and Bulgaria only have access to the Black Sea. My understanding is that if a Romanian warship goes to a military exercise in the Mediterranean, then it won't be allowed to return, just like Russian ships can't.

Sources are inconsistent on this topic – some say Turkey has closed the Straits to all warships, others say it has only closed the ships to the official parties to the conflict, which is currently only Russia and Ukraine (arguably Belarus too, but that's irrelevant to this, since as a landlocked state they have no navy), and that other naval ships, including Bulgarian and Romanian, are still allowed through, so long…

> In time of war, Turkey not being belligerent, warships shall enjoy complete freedom of transit and navigation through the Straits under the same conditions as those laid down in Articles 10 to 18.

> Vessels of war belonging to belligerent Powers shall not, however, pass through the Straits except in cases arising out of the application of Article 25 of the present Convention [no longer applicable] , and in cases of assistance rendered to a State victim of aggression in virtue of a treaty of mutual assistance binding Turkey, concluded within the framework of the Covenant of the League of Nations, and registered and published in accordance with the provisions of Article 18 of the Covenant. https://timinhonolulu.files.wordpress.com/2022/02/montreaux-...

So basically, if (a) Turkey declares that there's a war and (b) Turkey is not a party to that war, then (c) Turkey is authorized to close the straits to warships of belligerent parties.

There's some exceptions in there about ships returning to their base, but it'd be a pretty big loss of face for the Russians to beg Turkey to agree that a sudden rebasing of ships qualified.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#486

Post by MandieD »

fsloth wrote: post #292
donthellbanme wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Boy I have good news for you! If you are worried of the finance of Finland joining NATO - This will be a strategic partnership, not aid. It's a "good deal" for both sides. Finland will be an asset for NATO, not a cost. We already have a credible NATO compatible military. We just don't have nukes, and in wartime materiel replenishment would be a problem. https://www.ft.com/content/e85825af-5172-44c4-9662-f7ceca40e...…

As an American living in Germany and paying taxes to both, welcome and willkommen - heard nothing but good things about the Finnish Army while working for ours over here.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#487

Post by herbst »

emptysongglass wrote: post #435
herbst wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because Ukraine is on the doorstep of Europe, that's why Europeans care more, and by proxy the US. But only since Russia started invading. When news about Ukraine were still all about their corrupt government, breaking human rights, their horrible prisons and more like that nobody thought Ukraine to to 'close' or anything. It's obvious the whole perception of Ukraine just suddenly changed because Russia is the bad…

That isn't true. Many of us worked with Ukrainians before the war, especially in the software industry, such as myself. There was no sudden perceptual change. I observed the fear and anxiety my Ukrainian coworkers experienced directly. They are European and they did not deserve this invasion and as far as I'm concerned deserve all the help and compassion the rest of us can offer.

I am not denying any of this. I only have a minimal idea of how the situation is or was in the Ukraine, and don't claim to know. I hope the best for all of them.

I just struggle with the idea of sending weapons to a country that has a well recorded near history of human right violations. In my opinion the public voice is less about the actual people but about political fears.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#488

Post by baq »

rightbyte wrote: post #81
ssl232 wrote: post #52

Usual caveats that I'm not a diplomat, don't have all the facts, etc etc., but this doesn't seem like a rational move for Finland or NATO. The UK just yesterday agreed to protect Finland in the event of an attack, and the UK's involvement would likely bring in many other NATO powers anyway, so arguably they're getting protection they'd otherwise have to pay for for free. And actually, officially joining NATO will hav…

Finland should have applied for NATO 10 years ago or in 10 years, not now with the tense situation. They are essentially stating that Russian gov. is aggressive enough to be a threat to them in the future but not agressive enough right now to create a "border dispute" to prevent NATO membership. My take is that they should just have stayed out of the Russia US power game completely.

absolutely the best time to join is now. russia can't do jack shit about it. in 10 years, a preemptive strike would be probable.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#489

Post by baq »

rightbyte wrote: post #115
thraxil wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finland should have applied for NATO 10 years ago or in 10 years, not now with the tense situation. 10 years ago, it was reasonable to believe that Russia would never invade a neighboring country, so joining NATO wasn't seen as necessary or preferable to maintaining neutrality. 10 years in the future, based on what we're seeing now, Russia may have already invaded/attacked Finland and it would be too late to join N…

I am arguing that the risk of 'sparks' outweights the benefits of joining NATO right now.

what sparks.

russia is 100% committed to ukraine. there's nothing left to catch fire.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#490

Post by CRConrad »

aiilns wrote: post #90
alkonaut wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has argued that having NATO on its borders is a threat. Talk about missiles within range of Moscow and so on. Obviously these comments make no sense. But Russian domestic politics is always using a narrative of being a victim and having risk of being invaded. The Second World War doesn’t exist in Russian storytelling. The great patriotic war on the other hand, conveniently started in the 40s. The Finnish borde…

> Talk about missiles within range of Moscow and so on. Obviously these comments make no sense. Why doesn't it make sense? I'm not for Russia nor for NATO, but what is the purpose of the alliance if not against Russia as a remnant of the cold war? Wasn't the same kind of reasoning used by the USA for Cuba resulting in its ~blockade~ "quarantine" and almost war/invasion? It seems to me there's a certain rhetoric meant…

> > Talk about missiles within range of Moscow and so on. Obviously these comments make no sense.

> Why doesn't it make sense?

Because Moscow has been in range of missiles for decades, Baltics and Finland and Ukraine in NATO or not.

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