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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#341

Post by watwut »

michaelmrose wrote: post #145
sph wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we please learn the difference between fascism, nationalism and nazism? Putin nor his supporters haven't gone full nazi. Full fascist, perhaps. Nationalist, definitely. He used the "denazify Ukraine" slogan when Zelenskyy is actually Jewish not because of deep seated racial or religious motivations, but just to get more of the populace to buy his belligerent cause. Putin just cares about Crimea, Sevastopol, and t…

What is the difference between the Nazis and Putin's Russia today? A fascist State organized around one man organizing the genocide of an ethnicity to further his geopolitical aims and restore his nation to a position of prominence and prestige in world affairs who destroys not only others but his own people as well. He's just using Ukrainians instead of Jewish folks seems more like an implimentation detail. Even hat…

Glad you asked. Nazis ideology was based on strong genetic/biological definition of race. It was all about who your grand-parents were. It believed in struggle for survival for races and whole pyramid of races. Aryans on top (not whites), Jews as main enemies/bottom and dangerous, Slavic people low on hierarchy but not dangerous. It also believed Germans need more "living space" as Germany is too small. The place to colonize was East.

They also believed in "survival of fittest" and competition. That influenced the way they build institutions and how they treated sick etc. They liked to have two institutions with same goal and have them compete. Russia is different in all three points. It does not care much about own disabled, but they are not seen as threat the way Germans seen disabled. Russian parents with sick kid dont have to be afraid to go to see doctor for example.

> He's just using Ukrainians instead of Jewish folks seems more like an implementation detail. Even hating them is completely optional.

Both ideologies are very very different in how they treat subjects, actually. For instance, Ukrainians became subject of genocide after they refused Russia domination - Jews had no such option. Russians claim Ukrainians are Russia by blood and deserve punishment for considering themselves apart. Meanwhile, many many German Jews considered themselves Germans. That is underappreciated point - but a lot of them were German patriots, veterans of WWI, married ethnical Germans and were atheists.

Edited to add: Russia is also significantly less totalitarian them Germany was back then. It is autocracy/dictatorship, but it is not nearly as oppressive internally as Nazi Germany was. Timing is different too, its move toward complete lock of press happened only after invasion of Ukraine - contrast with German who did that long before military moves.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#342

Post by formerly_proven »

aa-jv wrote: post #97
rightbyte wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is much talk about Russia not wanting Finland in NATO but why would NATO want Finland in NATO with yet another expensive border to patrol. "Buffer states" work both ways.

Finland joining NATO benefits the military-industrial complex immensely . There are HUGE profits to be made in the effort required to get NATO and Finnish military standards aligned.

Bullshit. Both Sweden and Finland have "NATO-compatible" militaries and took part in many NATO exercises over the years.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#343

Post by qayxc »

tovej wrote: post #33
qayxc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Putting both countries in a new list of 'very unfriendly countries'? My best guess would be exactly that. The last thing Putin wants is a repeat of the Finno-Russian wars of 1917 and 1941, which resulted in catastrophic losses on the Soviet side.

You mean the war of the winter 1939-1940 and the 1941-1944 war. 1917-1922 was the Russian civil war and 1918 the Finnish civil war. IIRC, some of the White Finnish raiding parties ventured into Russia, and the Bolsheviks supported the Finnish Reds, but you can't really speak of Soviet losses, the Russian Soviet Republic was founded in 1917 and only gained power due to the civil war.

During the Finnish Civil war, which ultimately ended in Finish independence, the White Finnish forces ended the Russian presence in Finland and Soviet (yes, Soviet) soldiers who fought on the side of the Finnish Red Guard left the country.

If you insist on nit-picking years, I only supplied the years of the start of the conflicts. You can go as far to include every border conflict, but that's completely besides the point. The forces that supported the Red Guard during the 1917-1918 war were all part of the Soviet forces in any case.

> the Russian Soviet Republic was founded in 1917 and only gained power due to the civil war.

They lost Finland and any influence on the country, which gained independence during that time, seeing that as "only gaining power" is a weird and twisted view on history.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#344

Post by cycomanic »

aa-jv wrote: post #259
cycomanic wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't answer the previous posters question. I actually am well aware of the crimes committed by NATO members (I would argue that they were not under NATO mandate though, except maybe Serbia, but that's a different argument). BTW the most atrocious crimes go back way more than 20 years. I also know that many western nations have been very nonchalant about violations of international law by their own allies, and I…

>You didn't answer the previous posters question. I, in fact, answered it. YES, I believe NATO will commit further war crimes and continued crimes against humanity in its lust to demolish Russia. It has a long history of doing so already and shows no signs that it will stop its criminal behaviours in the near future.

You said:

>Yes, I do believe that NATO is a war-crime committing, human-rights abusing entity that is bringing much death and destruction and turmoil to the world for the sake of special interests - political and commercial - who stand to gain billions in profit from every single NATO base built.

>But, I've been paying attention to NATO's war crimes over the last two decades, as well as the immensely evil crimes against humanity committed by the Wests' 5-eyes nations in their disgusting wars. Why haven't you?

So no you did not answer the question.

Now I have a question for you, how did NATO force Russia to invade Ukraine, considering it is somehow part of their plan of "continued crimes against humanity in its lust to demolish Russia".

Second question, do you think what Russia is doing in Ukraine are crimes against humanity? If not why?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#345

Post by RandomLensman »

refurb wrote: post #318
RandomLensman wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is 2) or 3) of my points related to a perspective? Those are either historical fact or current situation. On territory, Russia can have a different view and they are entitled to it - but doesn't change that it is a wrong perception. Not sure, if Russia's perspective should then guide policy "in the West".

I agree 2 and 3 are facts, but the error is you think they are relevant to how Russia see the situation . I understand you think that perception is wrong, but remember, global geopolitics is not about "who is right", it's about "how do we find the least violent solution to this conflict". If you read MacNamara's book on Vietnam, he actually goes back and talks through the war with the North Vietnamese leaders at the…

In the end, not sure it really matters how Russia sees the situation to be honest or what Russia thinks is relevant to them now[added]. If Russia wants to go nuclear over this, then so be it - they will go nuclear over something else if not this one if they are so willing to act on perceived threats not realized ones. EDIT: I cannot stop Russia from doing what it wants to do but like in the cold war I am not stopping living my life, either.

Also not sure it is always about "least violent solution", was WWII the least violent solution or what would have been the least violent one and how could it have been reached?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#346

Post by enaaem »

rightbyte wrote: post #40
durnygbur wrote: post #31

Look at the map, the NATO doesn't have much land borders with Russia. With Finland joining... the length of land border will multiply. This will surely pose a challenge.

There is much talk about Russia not wanting Finland in NATO but why would NATO want Finland in NATO with yet another expensive border to patrol. "Buffer states" work both ways.

The Baltics are very vulnerable and with Finland nearby they can easily be supported.

Looking at Russias performance against Ukraine Finland and Sweden alone would easily hold them off. Nato won’t need to spend much resources to protect Finland.

Ukraines terrain is as easy as as it gets for Russia. Finland is full of lakes, forests and mountains. Logistics is 100 times harder.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#347

Post by skissane »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #315
NicoJuicy wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkeye is balancing things. They also closed it for NATO and did it after Russian ships arrived.

What would NATO ships do there? "Balancing" would only make sense if NATO was directly a part of the conflict.

If NATO was directly part of the conflict, Turkey as a NATO member would be expected to be 100% on NATO's side, not "balancing" its allies against their enemy. If it was still trying to "balance" in that situation, it would either stop real fast or else end up expelled from NATO. In an actual shooting Russia-vs-NATO war, nobody would care about the legal niceties over whether NATO members can be expelled – the other members would just agree to do it, and the lawyers can debate the legality of it when the war is over.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#348

Post by T-zex »

pmontra wrote: post #56
nine_zeros wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it was just friendliness towards Russian people? This war is entirely political. Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries.

> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. This is true for basically every people every time in history. People care about food, family, a house, medical care. All is well until some government starts pushing them into a warring state of mind. Examples from the previous generation of European wars, when Italy invented fascism, Germany followed suit ten years later and both countries started to thi…

Italian and German fascism lasted relatively short period of time. Generation that "invented" it had a chance to change their mind.

Russian fascism runs for multiple generations. Russia never was democratic. Russian mentality is to have an aggressive leader ("бьёт - значит любит").

Navalny is perceived as an alternative to Putin, but he supported Crimean annexation and Georgian war. There is no evidence the remedies that worked for Nazi Germany will work for Russia.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#349

Post by desproges »

phatfish wrote: post #147
aa-jv wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Obviously these comments make no sense. Its not so obvious if you've been paying attention to NATO expansion, as compared to NATO promises. NATO bases have been being used to launch crimes against humanity and war crimes (with seeming impunity) for decades - the Russians have good reasons to want NATO to stand down. The West has a long and sordid history of committing war crimes, and then ignoring their war criminal…

The Russians are in no position to ask for anything. They have proved that unless they are invading a much less militarily capable neighbour (being the local bully) they do not have the resources or ability to worry a NATO force. Hence the reason Sweden and Finland will now join. Only the nuclear threat remains, which would mean the annihilation of Russia to save one mans ego if it was ever used.

No post body was provided.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#350

Post by shaky-carrousel »

thematrixturtle wrote: post #18
fsloth wrote: post #2

There was some discussion on plausible NATO membership of Finland and Sweden. At that point the disucssion was based on guestimates from media. But now it's official. This is not the NATO membership application, but a statement from the political leadership in Finland that they support and suggest parliament proceeds with the application process with maximum urgency. The President and Prime Minister of Finland have p…

This more or less seals Finland applying for NATO membership. However, adding new members requires unanimous consent from all existing members, so it's not guaranteed to be smooth sailing. Russia is also obviously deeply unhappy about this and will do its best to disrupt the process via direct and indirect pressure.

That distinction is pretty moot, as no applying country has ever been rejected by NATO.
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