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Passenger with “no idea how to fly” lands plane after pilot incapacitated

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Re: Passenger with “no idea how to fly” lands plane after pilot incapacitated

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1200 is VFR. That doesn’t mean null. 7500, 7600, and 7700 are used for various emergency purposes. These are transponder codes, not radio channels. It’s a code returned when the transponder is painted with interrogative radar.

This being Hacker News: The reason the digit 7 seems important here is that these are actually Octal. Under the hood this is a digital system, but the user interface is four octal digits ie 0000 to 7777 is a 12-bit value. Most modern aircraft are capable of providing a lot more data over their radio transponder, including a system unique identifier, but it turns out that "squawking" a four digit code is a useful amou…

when you look at all the reserved blocks, that's not a lot of usable address space. the internet says there are roughly 5k commercial aircraft in the air above the us during peak times. i get that these are regionally allocated, but still pretty tight i must imagine.

do modern mode 3 transponders also include tail number or some other unique identifier in a sideband?

Re: Passenger with “no idea how to fly” lands plane after pilot incapacitated

#412
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This being Hacker News: The reason the digit 7 seems important here is that these are actually Octal. Under the hood this is a digital system, but the user interface is four octal digits ie 0000 to 7777 is a 12-bit value. Most modern aircraft are capable of providing a lot more data over their radio transponder, including a system unique identifier, but it turns out that "squawking" a four digit code is a useful amou…

when you look at all the reserved blocks, that's not a lot of usable address space. the internet says there are roughly 5k commercial aircraft in the air above the us during peak times. i get that these are regionally allocated, but still pretty tight i must imagine. do modern mode 3 transponders also include tail number or some other unique identifier in a sideband?

Yes, the squawk code is not itself necessarily used to identify individual airplanes and distinguish them from one another and transponders now transmit significant amounts of data on top of the squawk code.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Dependent_Surveillan...

(I don't know how much squawk codes are, or were, used to specifically identify aircraft in the past, but I believe that currently it's not unusual that many aircraft in the same region would be squawking the same number, which would not confuse ATC because of all the other transponder data that's available.)

Re: Passenger with “no idea how to fly” lands plane after pilot incapacitated

#415
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're in a cessna, with one other person piloting. I think spending a significant time around aviation is a given, but I also wouldn't call that flying experience. It's not like being in the cabin in a commercial airliner, you'd see the pilot doing these things, and honestly as far as plane interfaces go, the Cessna is not bad. https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F... Here's the instrument pa…

This was a Cessna 208, not a 172. Possibly glass cockpit and definitely turboprop. It would look more like this unless it has the glass cockpit of course: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Cessna_2...

can you even see out the front window with how low the seat is?

Re: Passenger with “no idea how to fly” lands plane after pilot incapacitated

#416
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a fairly serious flight simmer for about 20 years now, including 13 years of DCS, and have flown the DCS F-18 since it's initial release 4 years ago. This topic gets discussed a fair bit within the flight sim community, and we mostly conclude that we'd likely get the F-18 into the air, but would most likely kill ourselves: either passing out from lack of tolerance and training to handle the G forces, lack o…

First of all, thanks for the awesome and comprehensive reply, I really appreciate it. > Particularly electronic warfare, radar performance, modern beyond visible range tactics, modern weapons performance porifiles Do you mean in, say, DCS F-18 the ECW systems and things like AIM-120 performance are fake, either because the devs don't have access to the real performance data or because they are under obligation not to…

Thanks for the reply. First, while I probably have a few thousand hours in the F18 in DCS, and a few thousand takeoffs and significantly fewer landings, I'm just a flight simmer, with no real experience in military or civilian aviation. Everything I say is just my speculations and guesses.

> Do you mean in, say, DCS F-18 the ECW systems and things like AIM-120 performance are fake, either because the devs don't have access to the real performance data or because they are under obligation not to make it too realistic? (That is, I would not be able to use the AIM-120 in real life in the same way it's used in DCS, because its performance is not the same?).

A bit of everything. First, everything in DCS is of course "fake". It's just a video game, and all physics, CFD, and electromagnetic waves are just simulated, and there is no way that DCS is doing high-resolution CFD and simulation of real radar returns in a real time game engine. Everything in DCS is approximated and faked. Everything. Some aspects better than others. The F18's radar performance uses a simple degredation factor to reduce the detection range when an object is below you, so many miles for so many degrees for example. Both simplistic, and incorrect.

> either because the devs don't have access to the real performance data or because they are under obligation not to make it too realistic?

I can only speculate of course, not being privy to the private deals Eagle Dynamics and subsidiary/parent companies may or may not have made with militaries. But both: real missile performance, especially for the modern AIM-120D is classified. There is absolutely zero chance that Raytheon/Lockheed/Hughes is going to give classified missile performance to Eagle Dynamics for a publicly consumed video game on the promise that they won't make it "too realistic". Second, even if there is a military grade classified version of the simulation somewhere, at least from the US perspective, they wouldn't be too worried about modelling the exact performance of the latest AIM-120D, for the simple reason that the AIM-120D is not a missile that the US navy or US airforce expects that they will have to defend against in a shooting war. It's their missile!

They would be more worried about modelling their latest estimates of the Russian and Chinese air-to-air missile performance. And, when it comes down to actually developing tactics to counter these threats, you don't necessarily need to do it in a real-time game engine. You can look at energy performance, range, etc, and determine ranges and work out a BVR timeline to defend against that threat.

Then, when you say, "AIM-120", do you mean the AIM-120 A,B,C, or D, or any subvariant, or export variants? For AMRAAMs, the F-18 in DCS has the AIM-120-B and the AIM-120-C-5 (along with the AIM-7M (and AIM-7MH) Sparrow, and AIM-9L/M/X). Whos to say if they're modelling all of these missiles correctly, as you'll be hard pressed to find an unclassified source of all the missiles characteristics and seeker/sensor performance.

As for the BVR timeline tactics, there is a lot of info out there. If you do a google search for various combinations of the terms like: BVR, Commit, Meld, Skate, Bonsai, Crank, Notch, F-pole, Short Skate, you will turn up various resources developed by both the flight sim community, and retired fighter pilots. These tactics were real BVR tactics at one point, but whos to say if what's trickled out to the flight sim community is accurate, and keep in mind a lot of these come from the F-14, or F-15 communities which were more focused on pure air-to-air.

Additionally, a lot of the material out there now is developed by flight simmers who are tailoring the tactics/timelines to do well in DCS! Not against real threats!

What the exact tactics are today for F-22s, F-35s and F-18E's going against Su-27s and Su-57s in a modern high threat environment? I have no idea.

> sent by data link from a nearby AWACS,

A big thing that DCS does not simulate at all is working in a modern high-threat ECM environment, particular detection and jamming. A radar pulse transmitted can be detected at much further ranges than it can get useful information from the return. Turning your radar on, or your datalink on to both tx and rx, is a huge liability in the modern battlefield - you tell your enemy exactly where you are. Jamming is another aspect - how well does datalink work in a modern environment against a peer threat when they can jam you? What if the AWACS aircraft gets taken out, what if the AWACS has to go EMCOM to protect itself? None of these are simulated at all in DCS (aside from the AWACS being shot down of course).

Anyway, I could go on, obviously I have a lot to say.

If you made it this far, here is a youtube video of a BVR engagement against AI aircraft in the F-18 with our virtual squadron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKqypIQ8qiw

We had the support of a human Airborne Intercept Controller (AIC) using the LotATC software, and were doing a BARCAP (barrier combat air patrol), to protect an airspace so that other members of our group could attack ground targets. We had just had two previous BVR engagements, and were low on gas and trying to get to a tanker, when the AIC notified us of a new threat.

In the video we are following a BVR timeline to try to meld/sort at ~40NM, shoot at 30-35NM, and skate at 23NM, against AI Mig-29s with the russian equivalent to the AIM7M.

Anyway, just my ramblings on DCS, etc. Cheers.

Re: Passenger with “no idea how to fly” lands plane after pilot incapacitated

#417
post #322
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pilot here: It could help with some familiarity but generally in MSFS you can get away with ignoring the gauges and just mess around. The tutorial might gloss over some of it. Having an unbelievable number of hours in MSFS when I was a kid ... landing a real plane is considerably harder and a ton of instruction time is just focused on getting you to land reliably. I finished my PPL in just over 40hrs which is close t…

Also pilot here (C172 G1000): I personally find landing a plane IRL easier than in MSFS. Much easier when I am able to feel resistance on the yoke, feel shifts in wind and gravity etc. All the MSFS controls are so extremely touchy. Though I agree you need 6-10 hours to get decent at landings :)

I agree. I’ve been flying MSFT since the Sublogic days, using only the keyboard. It was very rare to get a good landing. I have about eight hours in a Cessna, and that was a piece of cake, by comparison.

Re: Passenger with “no idea how to fly” lands plane after pilot incapacitated

#418
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listening to the audio of the conversation, it doesn't seem like the passenger has no flying experience... At minimum they must have spent significant time around aviation or be ex-military. e: From another comment on Reddit > Examples: > The passenger knew what button to press on the yoke to transmit to ATC. > The passenger knew aviation phraseology and phonetics “333 Lima Delta”. > The passenger knew where the alti…

I have 30 minutes and 2 touch-and-go’s in my log book. I suck at Microsoft Flight Simulator. In 30 minutes of the instructor sitting next to me, I successfully landed and took off in a Cessna 172, learned to trim power, elevators and flaps, learned how to transmit and how to “squawk ident”, and what channel to use in emergencies (1202 IIRC). Operating the airplane was very straightforward. Without the instructor or s…

A good memory jogger for the emergency transponder codes is: Hi Jack, I can’t talk right now, I’ve got an emergency.

7500 -> Being Hijacked 7600 -> Radio/Comms Failure 7700 -> Emergency

Re: Passenger with “no idea how to fly” lands plane after pilot incapacitated

#419
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're so rare that most drivers can't even imagine it happening to them. Combined with the fact that most drivers don't even understand what it is they should look for.

Really? The need to look far down the road is literally the first thing that comes up if you google "where should I look when driving": * In order to avoid last minute moves and spot possible traffic hazards, you should always look down the road ahead of your vehicle. * Your attention should be focused on the road ahead, following your intended path of travel. It would be best if you allowed a visual lead-time of at…

Normalisation of deviation.

When a person first gets their licence they may google the content you describe. Then they drive to work and home - down the freeway - every day for years.

They quickly learn that leaving too much space in front means people keep jamming in front of them. And the vehicle in front is the one you react most to - when it slows down or speeds up a little. So they pay attention to the car in front rather than down the road. Why look down the road? It hasn't been relevant for XYZ hours of driving so far...

Eventually they confirm to the norms of traffic. And why not? They haven't seen an accident in ages and if they have, they likely drove past it after the fact without knowing how the accident happened and believing it to be a "freak thing". Thus the deviation from what they should do is rationalised and then normalised through daily use.

Then an accident happens and a multi-vehicle pile up occurs because the "norms of traffic" are NOT what people should be doing.

Sadly most people do that. While continuing to believe that their initial conscientiousness (first impressions!) - since slackened/eroded - means they are an above average driver.

And I too am subject to this human behaviour as much as I try to be conscientious about it. I know I will have some bad habits learned in similar fashion. But I don't know what they are because I have rationalised all my actions to myself. I should go do some training again...

Re: Passenger with “no idea how to fly” lands plane after pilot incapacitated

#420
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All planes are required to have the original POH onboard. However those don't really tell you how to fly the plane it's more focused on things like Vspeeds minimum flap extension speeds etc..

That varies based on the certification rules. My older 182 only had to have the operating limitations and weight and balance info (“O+W” in ARROW), but they did not have to be original. My later year A36, I believe needs the original AFM/POH. (In any case, I do carry it.) If you didn’t know how to fly, you couldn’t read enough of the book to figure it out before the aircraft departed controlled flight (if not on at l…

As noted, on an airplane without an AFM (Approved Flight Manual) the POH does not need no be on-board, only a placard with the operating limitations. The cutoff for the AFM requirement are individual aircraft that had their first flight after 1 March 1979.

As the owner/operator of an early 1979 build aircraft that does not have an AFM, I’ve had this discussion with maintenance/airworthiness inspectors so frequently that I keep a printout of 14 cfr 21.5 in my POH.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-C...

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