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Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

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Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#141

Post by troupe »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #111
troupe wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair, but if someone chooses to go to an Islamic university, listing the fact that "everyone" there is a Muslim as a negative seems weird.

Oh sure, I'd expect that most people going there align with the college's beliefs. I'm just pointing out that it's not 100% and that there are non-Christians going to Christian colleges.

Agreed, but the comment I was responding to seemed to be surprised, concerned, or at least saw it as a negative that a Christian college was populated by Christians.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#142

Post by dredmorbius »

adolph wrote: post #128
dredmorbius wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to know why "stay-at-home cowboy" isn't an option.

all cowboys are wfh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_on_the_Range "Home on the Range" is a classic cowboy song, sometimes called the "unofficial anthem" of the American West.

Touche!

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#143

Post by dredmorbius »

vonnik wrote: post #116
dredmorbius wrote: post #7

Another is Deep Springs College, about 30 miles from Big Pine, CA. This is a two-year school, in the remote desert. Enrollment is about 30 students, coeducational since 2018. There is no tuition, but students work ~20 hours/week at jobs including cook, irrigator, butcher, groundskeeper, cowboy, "office cowboy", dairy, and feedman. The college was created to both train and accustom technical staff for powerplant engin…

Deep Springer here. Was going to add DS as well. @dredmorbius's summary is good. Couple additions/nuances: L.L. Nunn founded Deep Springs to train public servants/leaders. He hoped they would play a larger role in society. (Some do, some don't...). To all incoming students, the school distributes a pamphlet written by Nunn called "The Voice of the Desert", in which he articulates his vision for the school and his app…

NB: I'm not finding any Bills associated with DARPA's founding.

The founding director was Roy York.

There's Robert Sproull (1918--2014), who was director of ARPA. Might you be misremembering his name?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sproull

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#144

Post by vonnik »

dredmorbius wrote: post #143
vonnik wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deep Springer here. Was going to add DS as well. @dredmorbius's summary is good. Couple additions/nuances: L.L. Nunn founded Deep Springs to train public servants/leaders. He hoped they would play a larger role in society. (Some do, some don't...). To all incoming students, the school distributes a pamphlet written by Nunn called "The Voice of the Desert", in which he articulates his vision for the school and his app…

NB: I'm not finding any Bills associated with DARPA's founding. The founding director was Roy York. There's Robert Sproull (1918--2014), who was director of ARPA. Might you be misremembering his name? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sproull

Thank you. It was Bob Sproull.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#145

Post by DiggyJohnson »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #69
laGrenouille wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using Harvard as an example, they had an operating expenses of $5.0 billion in 2021 [1]. In order to cover that, they would need to be having a consistent rate of return around 9% on their ($54 billion) endowment. That a fairly good estimate of the rate of return for the stock market over the past 25 years, so not unreasonable. Though, this ignores that most of the endowment consists of restricted funds that can only…

I admit I don't know about university endowments, so the question is: what are those $40+ billion dollars sitting there for every year? Does a university really need a balance that may be larger than some nation's GDP?

The whole point is that you don’t draw down the endowment. It’s a long term investment.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#146

Post by daniel-cussen »

godelski wrote: post #35
supernova87a wrote: post #27

Sorry to depart from the feel-good narrative, but this kind of student labor is token or symbolic at best. The kinds of jobs that students can perform are not nearly the kind of jobs that a college with a physical plant to maintain, professors to pay, finances to administer, etc. can make a meaningful dent in. (By and large), students are not going to be doing electrical work, maintenance, financial accounting, admin…

This should be unsurprising since most colleges/universities already have student workers. From places in admin, campus guides, working odd jobs like the cafeteria or library, or many other places. The two schools I've been to limit these workers to 20 hrs/wk (so it is part time and they can be "full time" students). But this is nowhere near enough to pay for tuition. It is really just "beer money" (about $300/wk if…

They absolute most elite colleges lose money on the kids but...like it's a human resources thing, the administration transitions into senior jobs at other, less flash but equally expensive universities for a remarkable salary for how little work it is, and a crazy amount of power over the most politically active, and legally vulnerable because now they're responsible for debts, tried as adults of course, their parents are technically absolved of any responsibility to help them (except when there's a contract to pay for college, which is rare) so paying is totally optional, and poorest age bracket. And they're legal to have sex with, and at their peak of appearance in most respects, and they can't get a decent job without that degree if they're in a bind to get a lawyer. Especially in a bear market like right now, or 2008, youngest adults are fucked the most. I once asked about legal representation against a groundless and provably false rape accusation where the court would say this is a total lie, the scenario was proof sufficient to absolve someone from a murder, meaning court-valid proof all the way. The guy quoted me $25,000, will financial aid help with that I wonder? And he said there's like a delay (when they kind of sniff out if you've got legal firepower if you're rich you obviously do or politically connected), but then once it gets going it's like, it gets going strong and disgusting.

But it's the best time of your life!

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#147

Post by daniel-cussen »

laGrenouille wrote: post #38
godelski wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be unsurprising since most colleges/universities already have student workers. From places in admin, campus guides, working odd jobs like the cafeteria or library, or many other places. The two schools I've been to limit these workers to 20 hrs/wk (so it is part time and they can be "full time" students). But this is nowhere near enough to pay for tuition. It is really just "beer money" (about $300/wk if…

I see a lot of confusion about college endowments on HN. It's best to think of them not as saving accounts but financial instruments. Annual university budgets make use of the returns off of the endowment, often covering more than half of their expenses. Their long-term plan is to never tap into the principal. In fact, the hope is to increase the principal with new donations to expand the annual returns to fight agai…

Oh so they're usurers.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#148

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

t0suj4 wrote: post #118
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #65

A number of people have commented on how this model of work-study is unrealistic because it relies on endowments for it to work. I think the argument can be flipped. The problem is that of incentives and the wrong culture dont allow the debt-free, work-study program to be more widespread, by leveraging endowments. Take for example a place like harvard. Consider that the objective of a harvard portfolio manager is to…

If I understand the US college debt trap correctly, the universities can raise prices however they want as long as the government can guarantee that banks loan the money to students the universities can pocket. So universities have incentives to convince the students to take on as much debt as possible.

You are correct

For the sake of thoughtful discussion, i chose to omit the topic of debt trap.

Your comment makes it painfully obvious that any attempt to tackle incentives discussion must by definition include all incetives , such as (unlimited) backstop of debt.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#149

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

mold_aid wrote: post #102
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #65

A number of people have commented on how this model of work-study is unrealistic because it relies on endowments for it to work. I think the argument can be flipped. The problem is that of incentives and the wrong culture dont allow the debt-free, work-study program to be more widespread, by leveraging endowments. Take for example a place like harvard. Consider that the objective of a harvard portfolio manager is to…

Right, but your primary example - and this is a condition (as in "symptom") that dominates most media coverage of US higher ed - is Harvard. Harvard is not a good example, as it's not representative. A "culture of misaligned incentives?" OK, what concrete connections between endowment, culture, and the "alignment" of "incentives" do you think apply to, say, UMass? _Why are too many US universities failing to provide…

Jobless majors are not the topic. The debate in this thread is not about educational outcomes, but net cost and net debt, and how we got there.

You are free to spend time playing video games and not learning to prepare yourself for a career. That is a choice one makes.

Outcome can be the basis for a claim for fraud - but that battle is already being fought elsewhere.

The true issue is, what incentives are at play that result in so much debt? Why cant you say thay "1 summer job is enough to pay for a year of tuition" anymore (this used to be the norm in the 70s!)

Whats preventing your students from working the summer to pay for tuition? It isnt students. They are working all the same. What incentives does the school have that are contrary to that goal

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