Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tech Salaries in 2022: Why the Six Figure Pay Makes Techies Feel Underpaid

toolbox.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

421–430 of 609 posts

Re: Tech Salaries in 2022: Why the Six Figure Pay Makes Techies Feel Underpaid

#421

Post by giantg2 »

greedo wrote: post #322
giantg2 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So many entitled people arguing for an economic caste system…" I don't see that anywhere in my argument. "Arguing that your wage should always match or beat inflation is arguing for defacto permanent income inequality." Do you have an alternative approach? I have not heard any mainstream argument for setting all salaries/wages to be equal. You have to define income inequality and then determine what level of inequal…

Ok, time to put your money where your mouth is. In-N-Out pays its store managers over $100K/year. Their workers make around $25/hour which scales out to $50k/year for a full-time employee. And trust me, most devs I know couldn't handle flipping burgers. Dealing with customers, dealing with managers, dealing with cleaning restrooms, dealing with late nights/early mornings. So don't shit on burger flippers...

"So don't shit on burger flippers..."

I'm not. I'm saying if everything paid the same (true income "equality", really equity), then why wouldn't I want to do a job, that is stereotyped as easy and typically low paid? There are tons of burnt out devs who want to quit and do something else.

There aren't any In-N-Out in my state. If I could get a manager position, then I'd consider it (although the range starts below $100k, especially outside of CA).

"And trust me, most devs I know couldn't handle flipping burgers."

Maybe. Many of the devs I know seem like the could (or have). But there are some that seem like they would struggle. I've worked in a warehouse, I've worked in billing, I've worked as a janitor, I've worked retail sales, and I've worked as a house painter. I've even done a weekend gig as a good worker at a BBQ stand. Food service is not my main choice (I'd take that over painting though), but your example pays much better than any of these did. Every job has tough stuff and everyone likes to assume others couldn't do it because they don't have as much grit or whatever, including devs. I think this is mostly just bias.

Re: Tech Salaries in 2022: Why the Six Figure Pay Makes Techies Feel Underpaid

#422

Post by zeku »

happymellon wrote: post #379
maccard wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US taxes are similar to UK taxes, particularly in california. Putting £95k into Salary Calculator [0] says you take home ~67% of your salary after taxes. £95k is ~$120k today, and putting that into this [1] calculator says you take home ~64% of your salary. [0] https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php [1] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-paycheck-calculator#...

So the UK is taxed lower than California? And we have more public services? What do they spend it on?

Mainly military budget if you google it.

A common American complaint is "subsidizing" European defense off of our tax dollars.

America is also a big spread out place so maintaining it is more expensive than small Euro countries.

On my first point, I think we get a rather strategic advantage from being the "Western" police. However I'm just explaining a common critique you'll hear.

Re: Tech Salaries in 2022: Why the Six Figure Pay Makes Techies Feel Underpaid

#423

Post by toomuchtodo »

scarface74 wrote: post #417
toomuchtodo wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why people unionize. Hasn't happened to tech yet, don't know if it will, but it isn't a forgone conclusion this is how markets have to work.

And when costs get to high, what’s stopping tech companies from just expanding their overseas presence?

The same thing that is causing reshoring: rising developing world wages, culture, language barriers, etc. If you have the necessary support in government, labor law. The defeatists will always argue against improvement of the status quo; they are not to be indulged, as their goal is not improvement. Only 30% of an org's workers need to vote for the NLRB to hold an election [1], and then you only need a simple majority to unionize.

Are we arguing against the attempt when a quick glance at the financials for FAANG and Co shows ample profit margins available for worker compensation?

[1] https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em...

Re: Tech Salaries in 2022: Why the Six Figure Pay Makes Techies Feel Underpaid

#424

Post by ryandrake »

lhorie wrote: post #413
thoughtpalette wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due to anecdotal reasons, going to have to disagree. Last switch was a 39% increase at 11 years in industry. The market is hot. Most of my friends/colleagues have seen a similar increase the last year. Obviously market, location, expertise will vary, etc. YMMV.

The thing with countering averages with anecdotes is that neither really paints a holistic picture of the demand pyramid. Back of napkin calculations say around 4% of US developers work at the FAANGMULAs, meaning that some 29 out 30 dev earnings are somewhere lower in the pay scale. But 1 out of 30 isn't an astronomically small number, so you could very well be one of those 300k TC people surrounded by others in that…

> The thing with countering averages with anecdotes is that neither really paints a holistic picture of the demand pyramid. Back of napkin calculations say around 4% of US developers work at the FAANGMULAs, meaning that some 29 out 30 dev earnings are somewhere lower in the pay scale.

Not only FAANGABCDEF, but "Staff+, with specialized skills, at FAANGABCDEF, in a small number of specific metro areas". If 1 software engineer can be found who makes $700K for every 29 software engineers at other companies/metros/levels who make $100K, Hacker News Commenters will tell you that "Software engineers make $700K". Important to point out there are a lot of other things in play that make it more complex.

Re: Tech Salaries in 2022: Why the Six Figure Pay Makes Techies Feel Underpaid

#425

Post by lumost »

khyryk wrote: post #355
lumost wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you know, I'd be very curious what kinds of radical interview approaches teams have considered to break out of the LC mold. A little LC is useful in an interview situation, if an engineer can't do a simple 20-30 line coding problem or reason over the constraints/design space - then there is a good chance that they will need help with core coding in the day to day (which may not be a deal breaker in every employer). A…

"Code review this" or "debug this" or "refactor this" are things that an actual developer doesn't need to do special preparation for as they probably do it almost every day, unlike LC, and should provide a signal more relevant to the job of coding that the candidate is smart and capable of doing good work. Having a bit of code to work with can also take away some stress by reducing the emphasis of typing a complete s…

The challenge with code review/debug/refactor interviews is that they rely on the candidate being familiar with the "this". The original intention of LC interviews was to remove domain specificity from the "this". Prior to LC interviews, candidates would get asked about their familiarity with things like ISO standards, random libraries, or other weird behaviors best learned through memorization. This can be mitigated with candidate prep and/or problem selection, but it's worth keeping an eye on.

For take-homes, I don't think the candidate spending 12 hours on something that should take 2 is necessarily a negative signal - but it's also something that should be considered. If the candidate spent 12 hours ensuring the solution was perfect, then it's probable that they are just thorough - which is a good thing more often than not. You do end up in a quirky situation of judging candidates by how much time they are willing to dedicate to your take-home interview though.

Anecdotally, for the few take-homes that I've done - I've always gone a bit overboard out of pride. Granted, this is also how I approach a lot of coding tasks.. so I guess you get what you test for?

Re: Tech Salaries in 2022: Why the Six Figure Pay Makes Techies Feel Underpaid

#426

Post by scarface74 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #423
scarface74 wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when costs get to high, what’s stopping tech companies from just expanding their overseas presence?

The same thing that is causing reshoring: rising developing world wages, culture, language barriers, etc. If you have the necessary support in government, labor law. The defeatists will always argue against improvement of the status quo; they are not to be indulged, as their goal is not improvement. Only 30% of an org's workers need to vote for the NLRB to hold an election [1], and then you only need a simple majorit…

Yet every major tech company has large presence overseas already. There is no language barrier when your entire team that’s working on a product speaks the same language.

Also it’s not like tech today is mostly people whose first language is English - no judgements

Re: Tech Salaries in 2022: Why the Six Figure Pay Makes Techies Feel Underpaid

#427

Post by Teknoman117 »

cactus2093 wrote: post #391
ryandrake wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile for those that have the time and willpower to grind leetcode, they know they can command a 20-40% raise every few years. One thing a lot of people forget about this 20-40% number is: It's only true early in your career. It might be hard for younger folks to believe, but you will all hit a ceiling and plateau. My first job hop was for +50%! The next one was about 40%, the next one 15%, and so on. Now, with…

Your example is not actually that crazy at FAANG level companies. I know a lot of people in their early 30's that are L6 or even L7 at big tech companies, maybe they've changed jobs every 2 years on average in their career which is well under 9 times, and those level of roles have a total comp of 500k-750k/yr. With a 4-year stock grant and some luck on the stock performance in that time, that can turn into well over…

I guess I'm somewhat lucky that I was able to double my compensation over 5 years within the same company, but at this point I've hit the ceiling for rapid compensation growth for the most part.

Maybe I should just grind leetcode for a few months (my dynamic-programming algo skills are a bit rusty) and switch jobs. I would miss the 30 days of PTO though.

Re: Tech Salaries in 2022: Why the Six Figure Pay Makes Techies Feel Underpaid

#428

Post by toomuchtodo »

scarface74 wrote: post #426
toomuchtodo wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same thing that is causing reshoring: rising developing world wages, culture, language barriers, etc. If you have the necessary support in government, labor law. The defeatists will always argue against improvement of the status quo; they are not to be indulged, as their goal is not improvement. Only 30% of an org's workers need to vote for the NLRB to hold an election [1], and then you only need a simple majorit…

Yet every major tech company has large presence overseas already. There is no language barrier when your entire team that’s working on a product speaks the same language. Also it’s not like tech today is mostly people whose first language is English - no judgements

It appears to be a frequent occurrence for proclamations based on strongly held beliefs to be made that something is impossible, until it isn't. The balance of labor and capital is inevitably in tension perpetually, and I am simply arguing for more balance. Success is not assured, by any means, but that is no reason to accept the status quo in silence. There is always nuance, and I think it's unhelpful in the discussion to say "it won't work because of x." But that's not a conversation. The conversation is, "here are challenges with the current economic configuration, and here are some levers that could be pulled to make changes where there is a more equitable outcome for those who are getting the short end of the stick."

There is a wide gap between capital sucking up all of the productivity with workers being slave labor and Marxists seizing the means of production and burning it all down; neither is being argued for, but somewhere solidly in the middle of those extremes. Capital makes some sort of return, value is created, workers are treated fairly, receive reasonable compensation for the value they're creating, and have a seat at the table of the org, and everyone goes home happy. If someone is more of an Ayn Rand/Libertarian/individual exceptionalism sort of a person, this view is likely unpalatable, and there is no common ground to meet at.

Re: Tech Salaries in 2022: Why the Six Figure Pay Makes Techies Feel Underpaid

#429

Post by blahblarblar »

Tech work doesn’t feel like something you can have a life long career in. It’s stressful and there’s ageism. Tech workers are mentally amortizing their productive tech life-span over their whole life and then comp doesn’t look as high.

Re: Tech Salaries in 2022: Why the Six Figure Pay Makes Techies Feel Underpaid

#430

Post by PragmaticPulp »

thoughtpalette wrote: post #362
ryandrake wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile for those that have the time and willpower to grind leetcode, they know they can command a 20-40% raise every few years. One thing a lot of people forget about this 20-40% number is: It's only true early in your career. It might be hard for younger folks to believe, but you will all hit a ceiling and plateau. My first job hop was for +50%! The next one was about 40%, the next one 15%, and so on. Now, with…

Due to anecdotal reasons, going to have to disagree. Last switch was a 39% increase at 11 years in industry. The market is hot. Most of my friends/colleagues have seen a similar increase the last year. Obviously market, location, expertise will vary, etc. YMMV.

It's more accurate to say that job-hopping has diminishing returns.

Get a single +39% increase is one thing.

Getting a +39% increase every single time you change jobs isn't going to happen. If that was possible, you could change jobs every year for a decade and be earning 27X what you started with. If you started at $100K, that would put you at $2.7 million year after 10 iterations.

That's why whenever someone insists that job hopping is an easy way to get huge pay increases, it's probably more a sign that they're early in their career and/or that they haven't been keeping up with compensation negotiations. For people at the sharp end of the compensation scale, job-hopping stops becoming an easy option for compensation increases.

Post reply on HN