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When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

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Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#61

Post by hammock »

LeanderK wrote: post #29
qsdf38100 wrote: post #22

I’m sceptical, it’s too easy to cherry-pick data to make it look supportive of one’s political agenda. Not saying it’s the case here, I just wouldn’t trust too much "obvious" patterns and easy to understand maps from a twitter thread. More often than not, such threads are omitting data that doesn’t support the view of the author. Reality is rarely obvious and simple.

I totally assumed the examples to be cherry picked but it's still fun to look at. Not every past border is visible on modern maps, but still some are clearly the consequence of those, for example the german maps where the old GDR is the reason for the high rate of atheism or popularity of more extreme parties. I think that often past borders are the consequence of different demographics, which clearly translate into…

By definition the examples are cherry-picked. I noticed he didn't pull up old Visigoth ranges, nomadic farmers or Babylonian borders.

That doesn't take away from the insight that certain political histories still resonate today.

Just as you can find examples of geologic features (like mountain ranges or rivers) influencing political divides, so too can you find examples of geologic features not influencing them. Doesn't mean the former is "misleading" or something.

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#64

Post by guerrilla »

Vinnl wrote: post #17

One interesting takeaway here is that it's somewhat likely that your own political convictions might be pretty different if only you had come to live elsewhere - sometimes not even that far away.

Probably... But this assumes there's no biological (or other) component that isn't stronger.

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#65

Post by m0llusk »

cheeseface wrote: post #5

In the end, culture and values change surprisingly slowly.

Sort of, but it is more like echoes. In the first and possibly most well known case the previously Prussian areas of Poland had all of the ethnic Germans forcibly removed. Because of this abrupt and extreme change there must be something else going on since the culture and values in fact changed quite suddenly and yet differentiation endures.

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#66

Post by codeflo »

It looks like several territories that were once ruled by Austria tend to vote more to the right, if I'm reading the maps correctly. Is that a coincidence, or is there anything specific about the history of the Austrian Empire that (seemingly) caused generation-spanning right-wing resentment in its populace?

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#67

Post by Mikeb85 »

I saw this phenomenon in practice in the Czech Republic... You see, Czechs and Slovaks are almost the same people with almost the same language. The historical difference? The Czech Republic was part of the Holy Roman Empire while Slovakia was part of Hungary for most of the same period.

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#68

Post by adrian_b »

TremendousJudge wrote: post #42
mkotowski wrote: post #14

Quite funny, when I read the title before checking the link, I first thought exactly about Poland voting preferences. For anyone interested: the difference in voting exists, because the east part of Poland is less developed and more rural in general. I remember that it is so in part because of how the Russian occupation was mostly of “steal as much as we can” variety, especially compared to Germans. It is also one of…

The territory that today is western poland was part of Germany pre-1939. It wasn't an occupation, it was just that territory of that country. Afaik, most of what was eastern Poland pre-1939 and was occupied by the Russians, nowadays is no longer Polish territory. The boundaries migrated west.

Yes indeed.

The Poland of after WWII has a similar area with the Poland of before WWII, but it has moved a lot towards West.

So the winners have been the Russians and the losers have been the Germans.

Poland was lucky because its large territorial losses to the Russian invaders have been somewhat compensated with territories taken from Germany.

The other Western neighbors of Russia have been much less lucky. The larger neighbors (Finland, Czechoslovakia, Romania) have lost large territories stolen by Russia without any compensation, while the smaller neighbors (the 3 lesser Baltic countries) have been incorporated completely in the Soviet Union.

I have written "the 3 lesser Baltic countries" because prior to WWII Finland was counted as the 4th Baltic country, since all 4 countries occupy the Eastern shore of the Baltic Sea, and they all form an enclave between Germanic-speaking people to the West and Slavic-speaking people to the East (the main languages in Finland and Estonia are Uralic, while the main languages in Lithuania and Latvia belong to the Baltic branch of the Indo-European languages).

For example, in the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact from 1939, the Russians have written explicitly their intentions to occupy all the 4 Baltic countries (Finland, Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia) and also Romania, and the Germans agreed with this, while the Russians agreed that the countries of Western Europe should belong to Germany.

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#69

Post by InitialLastName »

soared wrote: post #35
Imnimo wrote: post #30

Not sure I totally buy the Mexico one. The correspondence just isn't as strong as in some of the other ones, and in some places is confounded by modern state borders.

I don’t know that these are all cause and effect, but just interesting overlays. The Mexico one is clear to Americans - people who immigrate from Mexico choose to stay nearer to Mexico. Similar cultures, weather, etc. The areas previously being a part of Mexico is just coincidence.

There were a substantial number of people of Spanish-Imperial descent (of a variety of conditions) who didn't just move south when the border moved. Even now you see old families who identify as Mexican with the submotto "we didn't cross the border, the border crossed us". Keep in mind that much of that area was under Spanish and/or Mexican control for almost twice as long as it has been in the US (~1550-1846 vs 1846-present).

Re: When old historic maps overlap with modern political maps

#70

Post by hk__2 »

Some examples, especially the one about the "English" possessions in 1154 vs. elections results in 2022 vs where Brits are living in 2020 look very fishy. You have to try really hard if you want to see (or invent) a correlation between those, because they really don’t match at all.
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