Live data from Hacker News

Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

patrick-breyer.de

281–290 of 338 posts

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless you're pre-informed on the issues, whoever presents it to you can just pick the side that gets you to the answer they want. This summarizes a good 75% of modern political discourse.

Ironically, this is why a lot of people argue everyone shouldn't vote. Basically, if you add some minor barriers to voting you'll get only those who know and care about what's going on to vote. Otherwise, you'll have lemmings. Where people with a bit of propaganda will drive everyone else off the cliff.

Except the people voting on these laws are not everyone but those that have been chosen to act as informed agents on behalf of the people. How is that working out again?

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#282
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you can easily check, Mr. Breyer's website has been at the top of HN multiple times in the past year or so, and invariably the comment section becomes an anti-EU pitchfork party based on nothing more than the linked text and various unhelpful stereotypes. Comments like yours, which justifiably ask for a primary source, have never been getting the attention they deserve. So let me explicitly go against the grain he…

>"... I also believe that the EU will not "break secure encryption" (or make it illegal) in the foreseeable future. And if Mr. Breyer or anyone else would like to convince me of the alternative then please show me some concrete evidence first..." "EU’s resolution on encryption foreshadows likely anti-encryption push": https://protonmail.com/blog/eu-attack-on-encryption/ "EFF Tells E.U. Commission: Don't Break Encrypt…

> In other words, encryption they can access...

Access under the conditions that the

> Technical solutions for gaining access to encrypted data must comply with the principles of legality, transparency, necessity and proportionality including protection of personal data by design and by default.

Which means that the right to put something that clones the authentication session on a targeted device would do the job, no need to ban maths.

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#283

I'm just tired, to be honest. Even if we prevent this exact law (proposal), a few years down the line there probably will be another attempt. And again, and again. Just like it happend with the mandatory data retention laws for ISPs. I really try to stay optimistic on this topic, but it's really hard. :/

There's a fix though - pull power back to the local level. These sorts of initiatives crop up when politicians feel too safe or remote from voters (who generally always have other priorities, often the economy or violent crime).

So it's not any real surprise that this stuff is so often emerging at the EU level. The Commission doesn't have to care what voters think - it is in many ways a textbook dictatorship complete with a not-really Parliament - and so they focus on whatever ideas are trendy amongst the eurocrat set. Those people aren't much like the typical European. They're obsessed with certain ideas and ignore others completely. Information control is high up their priority lists, as are any issues that can be exploited to levy giant fines on American companies. They especially love those because the money goes straight into EU coffers the moment the decision is made by the Commissioners, without having to actually win any court cases and so it can be used to enhance their own power without having to get member states to agree to budget increases. Hence why there's a constant flood of internet related laws despite public dis-interest in the issue:

https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2553

"Europeans thought that the most important issues facing the EU at the moment of the survey were the environment and climate change (26%), rising prices, inflation, cost of living (24%) and immigration (22%). 41% of respondents mentioned prices, inflation, cost of living as one of the most important issues facing their country, before health (32%) and the economic situation (19%)."

Other than the recent climb in the rankings for climate change, the results always look like that. People care about the basics - their personal wealth, health and who's in their local community.

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#284
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"... I also believe that the EU will not "break secure encryption" (or make it illegal) in the foreseeable future. And if Mr. Breyer or anyone else would like to convince me of the alternative then please show me some concrete evidence first..." "EU’s resolution on encryption foreshadows likely anti-encryption push": https://protonmail.com/blog/eu-attack-on-encryption/ "EFF Tells E.U. Commission: Don't Break Encrypt…

> In other words, encryption they can access... Access under the conditions that the > Technical solutions for gaining access to encrypted data must comply with the principles of legality, transparency, necessity and proportionality including protection of personal data by design and by default. Which means that the right to put something that clones the authentication session on a targeted device would do the job, n…

Yes but so what? EU regulation is always like this, it contradicts itself and is impossible to interpret. Governments must be able to access encryption (unstated but obvious: without the target knowing they're being spied on), but the solution must also protect personal data and be "transparent".

"Which means that the right to put something that clones the authentication session on a targeted device would do the job, no need to ban maths."

You don't actually know that, you're just hoping that it means something like that. In reality, they will keep the rules vague and then attach massive fines to non-compliance so they get to do the following trick: make everyone involved in implementation super scared so they use a maximalist interpretation, then when people complain to the Commission they say "no we didn't intend that, our rules are actually super reasonable, go complain to the companies". Or one day the ECJ will 'discover' an interpretation that nobody knew about and everyone suddenly has to change the way they do things overnight, then the usual EU water carriers will post here on HN claiming everyone should always have known it from the start.

Same thing that was seen with GDPR, EU competition law and other cases. It's become a standard trick. Good law doesn't have this problem; the meanings and consequences are always clear.

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#285
post #278
post #169

The interesting thing about EU is that, because it’s a bureaucratic dictatorship, it can force it (worse, citizens are mostly obedient). So it’s particularly dangerous. Imagine France orders this! It’s not like Apple responding to consumers’ opinion.

Dictatorship means total authority over a domain. EU is so very far from that. If anything it’s the opposite of dictatorship. The federal EU institutions are mostly toothless with respect to the nation states.

The EU is a partially constructed dictatorship. Within the domains delegated to it in the treaties, it has total power without voter accountability (the most voters can do is elect MEPs who slow things down a bit). Also in some areas where the EU has effectively seized power without a treaty change, this is also true e.g. corporate tax law.

In some areas like health and defense it has failed (so far) to take powers, and so the usual democratic mechanisms at the state level are mostly still working.

So I think you're not really disagreeing with aborsy, unless by "domain" you mean exclusively physical domains.

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#286
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the interest in saving peoples time when responding to this: don’t. It’s trolling at worst and nerd sniping at best. The author of this comment knows this full well. His comment history is full of this kind of “drop bomb” and run crap. “covid passports” being required is not exactly the fault of the EU, if anything it’s because of the freedoms the EU still has. Anti-covid rhetoric needs to die, anti-EU bad faith p…

> is full of this kind of “drop bomb” and run crap. Hello. I usually keep responding to people. I'm not from the EU, so if you disagree with me I'll respond. It's not unlikely I'm wrong. I am a crazy anti-government guy though, so you've got me there.

Well, I'm going to take this argument in good faith then and assume you're not trolling, but I'll be extremely disappointed if I'm proven wrong.

I'll start by saying that the EU does have issues, I can talk fairly about what the EU even is first, why it evolved and then talk about those issues as fairly as I can.

FD: I am pro-EU but it's not like I can't understand that people can have exactly the same information as me and disagree, the EU is trade-offs and I'm personally in favour of those trade-offs; I can understand why some people would not.

----

The EU, at its core started off, as everyone mentions repeatedly: as an economic union; the purpose of which was to make the idea of war in Europe unpalatable.

This core fact is why when people complain about "jobs moving to x,y,z EU country where the labour is cheaper" they're right, but that was the purpose of the economic union from the beginning and not the EU; since that's the point of the EEC (the pre-cursor to what became the EU).

Over time it became apparent (during the cold war, specifically) that Europe is directly in the crossfire of two super powers, and each of us alone is not capable of fending off either of them, either economically (since the power imbalance in economics means Russia, the US or even China can basically dictate terms to us) or in terms of defence (a scrambled response will be slow and ineffective).

Thus: the EU was formed, to try to compete at the same level as the Soviet Union and USA. (and, recently, China is a super power).

The way the EU functions is actually the most democratic system that exists in Europe itself; no government is more transparent, more directly elected or more advanced with regards to how it decides who gets seats. This is probably contestable on some level, maybe there's some more balanced democracy that I'm not aware of, but as a Swedish/British citizen: the EU parliament is far more representative of votes than the UK parliament or Swedish Riksdag (though the Swedish one comes a lot closer).

Every time someone complains about the EU they're doing so from either a place of ignorance ("the EU mandates bananas cant be too bendy!"[0]) or a place of understanding of inefficiency (France being unwilling to release the EU parliament from being moved between cities half of the year[1]; or the growing right wing totalitarian regime in Poland and Hungary[2]).

When you conflate ignorant topics with important topics it muddies the water; it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation about reform.

Why would we need reform instead of abolishing the institution though?

Because the EU countries are actually under serious threat from Russia, the USA and China (as mentioned). While it might not be obvious to those living in the EU; the same way the presence of a military or police is sort of invisible and people act "reasonably" most of the time; you might wonder if you even need the police or the military.

I might sound like I'm fear mongering, but I'm not, it's just the reality of trading and defending as a bloc; the same is true at nearly any scale. For example in Sweden it's common for an entire apartment building to negotiate for internet, and the rates that they get are significantly cheaper than if they had negotiated alone. Apes together strong.

The downside of that negotiation is: everyone must be aligned on the decision being made, and you lose the individual freedom to choose a provider. But the result is a better experience for everyone. Most of the time you elect representatives, in Sweden this is a board in a housing community, and they act on behalf of the interests of the bloc.

Crucially, this is what the EU is doing; and what you said about COVID passports is one of those things that's there because the EU does not impose itself on member states, the EU is very hands off on many areas.

There's a few projects or initiatives which go through the (directly) elected parliament, but they often must get unanimous consent of all member states, not just "Germany throwing its weight around" as is commonly suggested, that's not really possible with the way the EU is structured, the EU is structured in a way that it's easy for most member states to stop the EU from doing something; and really difficult to make something new happen.

This is why certain problems are occurring: the French holding on to the EU parliament for 6 months of the year, the French can simply say "no" to proposals to stop that inefficiency from existing and the EU can't really do anything about it.

The same is true for any potential sanctions against Poland and Hungary suppressing freedom of the press. Obviously the potentially sanctioned country can't vote on if it gets sanctions, but if Hungary say "no" to sanctions against Poland, there's nothing the EU can do.

The EU is optimised for ensuring basically nobody is doing anything against their will, except in rare cases where everyone but 1 member state agrees; but historically there have been "opt-outs" to many things. The UK being in the country in the EU has the most asterisks of every country combined in any treaty usually.

[0]: Overly disfigured bananas are supposed to bear a classification, they're not banned: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/news-and-pre...

[1]: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/18/why-does-parli...

[2]: https://cepa.org/what-can-we-do-about-poland-and-hungary/

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ok, if you're willing to renounce the style of 14 year old who just saw their first Hitchslap video Well, this is a pleasant, open minded start... but thank you for the references. > much in the same way that life-at-conception was mainstream biology until the moment it became politicized. I think most mainstream biologist believe that a fetus is living cells and, hence, life. Most mainstream biologists would not,…

Sorry about the barb.

[deleted]

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of like when a website begs for permission to use your location over and over even though you say no every time, until you screw up and say yes — and then you never hear about it again. These ideas arise over and over until one makes it through, and then we have lost that bit of liberty for good.

Which browser are you using? Chrome doesn't ask again if you say no.

That’s why sites ask you first with their own dialog, and only if you say yes do they pop up the browser dialog.

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#289
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I just lacking imagination? Yes. The EU is becoming a totalitarian regional government of elites. Originally it wasn't even supposed to have a military presence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_forces_of_the_European... It was supposed to prevent the need of passports. https://www.covidpasscertificate.com/europe-digital-green-pa... All the good things are going out the door and all the bad things are walki…

In the interest in saving peoples time when responding to this: don’t. It’s trolling at worst and nerd sniping at best. The author of this comment knows this full well. His comment history is full of this kind of “drop bomb” and run crap. “covid passports” being required is not exactly the fault of the EU, if anything it’s because of the freedoms the EU still has. Anti-covid rhetoric needs to die, anti-EU bad faith p…

[deleted]

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#290

I'm just tired, to be honest. Even if we prevent this exact law (proposal), a few years down the line there probably will be another attempt. And again, and again. Just like it happend with the mandatory data retention laws for ISPs. I really try to stay optimistic on this topic, but it's really hard. :/

The EU is used to introduce laws that aren't supported on a national level. The parliament doesn't really help as an organ for control since it is dependent as an institution. I more and more believe that the EU is fundamentally defunct and instances like this and the ISP spying is further evidence. It is just making everyone poorer with its monetary policies and the civil liberties it fights for are not much more than smokescreens.
Post reply on HN