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Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

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Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are essential differences between chemistry and mathematics. To discover anything in mathematics, including a new video compression algorithm, you do not need anything else, except a computer. In theory, not even the computer is needed, as you could do everything with pen and paper, but it might require years or centuries. Chemistry is an experimental science for now, until someone would find a method to solve…

You have missed the point, a video encoder isn’t just math anymore than chemistry is just math. Finding the methods is the discovery and there are a lot of experimental work that goes into video and audio encoding as well including perceptual measurements and actually coming with a method that can be efficiently implemented in both software and hardware. There are plenty of patents that don’t require nearly as much e…

Designing a video compression algorithm is a purely mathematical task.

However you are right that for comparing different compression methods and for deciding which is the best method of several alternative methods having the same compression ratio, it is far better to do experiments with humans, instead of relying on some mathematical criterion, e.g. the distance between the original signal and the decompressed signal, according to some simple metric.

So I agree that a new video or audio compression algorithm may incorporate some new knowledge about a physical system, i.e. about the perceptual abilities of humans.

However that would justify patenting only some features of the algorithm that have the clear purpose of taking advantage of some characteristics of the human vision which have been newly discovered and described by the patent authors.

The valid claims cannot cover any mathematical tricks to improve the efficiency of the algorithm or any characteristics of the human vision that have already been exploited in the patents for older video compression algorithms.

I am pretty sure that no patent for video compression algorithms restricts itself to such reasonable patent claims.

Regarding software, the main problem is what makes you think that the fact that you happened to be the first to write a program that solves a certain problem, gives you any right to forbid to everybody else to solve the same problem.

It is guaranteed that there are thousands of other programmers who would solve the same programming problem as well as you or even better, without knowing anything about your solution, but they just happened to not face that problem before you.

Any kind of software is a combination of known elements, which have been used for the first time in the early times of the computer industry. Those early algorithms were much more innovative in comparison to the existing practice, than those that are patented now. Had they been patented, no software company, e.g. Microsoft, could have ever appeared and grown.

All those who have patented software in recent years stand on the shoulders of the early programmers who have not patented much more valuable ideas, which are now freely incorporated in the patented software.

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#152

HEVC has a long and complicated history. With H.264, it was easy - one patent pool. Any questions? Contact MPEG LA. How much did it cost? About $2 or so per device, no problem. Did you spend more than (IIRC) $14 million on licensing each year? It's free past that point. As for open-source software like Firefox, Cisco actually struck a deal to pay all the royalties if you used their OpenH264 decoder (they needed H.264…

Part of the reason why I gave up commenting on video codec. 90% of what you wrote here is inaccurate to say the least.

The terms for HEVC on MPEG-LA and Access Advance are freely available on their website. If any one wants to look at the cap aka the limit on per company / entity basis you are free to do so.

One could be against patent as an idea or its system all you want. But an objective truth does not change simply because you are against it.

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#153

The frustrating thing IMHO is that IP security cameras support H.264 and H.265, while browsers support H.264 and VP9/AV1. It's good that they have one codec in common, but I'd prefer they share a modern one. I think much of it is geopolitical. Browser vendors are mostly in the West, can't just ignore the patents, and don't want to pay for the patents. Camera and chipset makers are mostly in China and simply ignore pa…

>Browser vendors are mostly in the West, can't just ignore the patents, and don't want to pay for the patents.

Google already pay for it via their hardware business.

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#154
I wonder if there is a term similar to Rust Evangelism Strike Force for AOM. But generally speaking AOM supporter refuse to accept anything but AOM. This isn't just the case with patented video codec like HEVC or VVC. But even something like JPEG-XL.

I would not be surprised if whole team of Google engineers threaten to quit if the company were to support HEVC in their browser.

One could also argue, in the context of Internet video, [1] HEVC doesn't actually provide that much cost saving. The cost of bandwidth have reduced by 90%+ in the past 10 years. And we should see continue cost reduction in the next 10 years. While the cost of storage is extremely slow if not risen due to the usage of NAND. Hence there isn't really a need to switch. H.264 is still the most efficient video codec in terms of complexity / compression. ( May be MPEG-5 EVC is better in this scenario, but it is still very new )

[1] Video codec has lot of usage outside of internet, HN and internet/Tech comments tends to have a world view where everything is internet and ignore broadcast or other media usage.

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#155

Another question is why don't browsers support MKV container format? From an arbitrary search "The Matroska project is supported by a non-profit organization and is a fork of the Multimedia Container Format. It was first announced to the public at the end of 2002 and is a completely royalty-free open standard that's free for both private and commercial use."

MKV can literally contains anything includes but not limited to text based effected subtitle, image based subtitle, multi alternative audio channel, chapter separated video and even font.

And the used codec also isn't even limited. H265 10bit + flac 96khz? Fine. You can pack it as long as you want. And it's your own problem to play it. And that is basically why you see youtube-dl merges best audio + best video into MKV. Because it is the one only format that allow you to merge something like vp9+opus into playable single file.

It is basically a 'one format rule them all' format. The browser is unlikely to actually properly implement all of them. (In fact, there are only a few players actually implement all of them outside of players on windows) And even browser does want to implement everything, there isn't proper API for browser to expose these capabilities to the DOM and JavaScript to properly control them. (I think we are unlikely to see browser support native multi audio track video)

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#156
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three patent pools, and some major companies that you need patents for aren't in any of them. Also unlike H.264, there was no limit to how much you could spend on licensing every year. And that was only the beginning of the disaster. https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=31318663&goto=item%3Fi...

>there was no limit to how much you could spend on licensing every year. Both MPEG-LA and HEVC Advance offer Max Cap per year.

MPEG LA had a cap, Access Advance (formerly known as HEVC Advance) now has a cap though I do not believe there was a cap originally. However, my statement is still correct because to use HEVC you need to also talk to Velos Media (pricing and terms not public), and you also need to contact several individual companies not in pools like Technicolor (who also do not have their pricing and terms public).

EDIT: HEVC / Access Advance does have a cap if you put their branding on any product you make containing HEVC technologies - including, oddly, 4K Blu Ray discs (see LOTR Extended Edition 4K, it has the HEVC logo on the box, as if literally anyone cares about HEVC as a brand). If you don't put their logo on your products, no caps.

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#158

first thing that comes to mind for me is AV1 nobody wants to pay the absurd price for teh licensing and royalties for things like codecs

not to mention they're talking about like h266 now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versatile_Video_Coding

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have missed the point, a video encoder isn’t just math anymore than chemistry is just math. Finding the methods is the discovery and there are a lot of experimental work that goes into video and audio encoding as well including perceptual measurements and actually coming with a method that can be efficiently implemented in both software and hardware. There are plenty of patents that don’t require nearly as much e…

Designing a video compression algorithm is a purely mathematical task. However you are right that for comparing different compression methods and for deciding which is the best method of several alternative methods having the same compression ratio, it is far better to do experiments with humans, instead of relying on some mathematical criterion, e.g. the distance between the original signal and the decompressed sign…

I think you lack understanding on what exactly is being patented if you are continuing to repeat the “it’s just math”.

I honestly can’t fathom why software engineers think that they are unique every patent, every invention is built on prior knowledge this is why every patent has a whole section of prior art we all stand on the shoulders of giants.

But again video encoding patents have rarely anything to do with software they are far more generic than that and also predate software by decades.

Here is one of the earliest examples of a video encoding patent I could find https://www.freepatentsonline.com/3679821.html

What exactly do you find here not to be worthy granting a patent for?

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#160
post #152

HEVC has a long and complicated history. With H.264, it was easy - one patent pool. Any questions? Contact MPEG LA. How much did it cost? About $2 or so per device, no problem. Did you spend more than (IIRC) $14 million on licensing each year? It's free past that point. As for open-source software like Firefox, Cisco actually struck a deal to pay all the royalties if you used their OpenH264 decoder (they needed H.264…

Part of the reason why I gave up commenting on video codec. 90% of what you wrote here is inaccurate to say the least. The terms for HEVC on MPEG-LA and Access Advance are freely available on their website. If any one wants to look at the cap aka the limit on per company / entity basis you are free to do so. One could be against patent as an idea or its system all you want. But an objective truth does not change simp…

> 90% of what you wrote here is inaccurate to say the least.

Then tell me where I am wrong.

> If any one wants to look at the cap aka the limit on per company / entity basis you are free to do so.

No, you are not, if you had more carefully read my argument. There are three patent pools, and a bunch of non-aligned companies whose patents you also need. HEVC can be properly called out as not having a cap even though some of the patent pools involved have caps. Velos Media, as far as leaks go, is widely believed to have no cap (and they have patents from Qualcomm and Sony, you can't really live without them) - and it is reasonable to believe the privately negotiated deals with the non-pool-affiliated companies (like Technicolor being a big one) also do not have caps. Velos Media's pool is pretty necessary and has no public documentation at all for what it costs.

Thus, HEVC can rightly be called a product without caps as far as can be reasonably told, unless you were to privately negotiate with all of the patentholders yourself. In a similar vein, HEVC / Access Advance said that anyone can build an open-source implementation of HEVC for free, but that is useless propaganda because MPEG LA and Velos don't agree.

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