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Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#221

Post by 8345570934 »

mrsuprawsm wrote: post #158
8345570934 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the people who support things like mandating USB-C, forcing open the App Store, and GDPR are misguided at best. These are significant transfers of power from the (mostly) organic and consensual realm of individuals and businesses to the coercive realm of state force. You can always buy an android phone (with USB-C) and use GrapheneOS, F-droid, Tutanota, Brave Search, Odysee, Mastodon, Matrix, etc. to get most…

>and for the annoying cookie warnings These are from companies who are too lazy to properly comply with the GDPR, or worse, plainly illegal. It's not the fault of the GDPR that many companies choose not to be compliant. (The national regulators should absolutely clamp down harder on these non-compliant cookie popups)

When you make a law, you are responsible for the consequences of that law. It's like when the British colonial authorities inadvertently incentivized the breading of cobras, and how modern drug warriors push users to more dangerous substances. You are legislating reality, not a fantasy world where you have total control.

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#223

Post by stjohnswarts »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #85

I went three indirections down and I still can't find any actual quotes or even summaries of concrete proposals, so I'm surprised how many people can confidently judge that these unexplained proposals are a dumpster fire solely on the basis that they aim to precent child sexual abuse material... The most specific thing I found was a linked document that laid out three possible legislation options, all in very loose l…

Anytime something starts out with "think of the children" (paraphrased), hold on to your wallet, your pocket-size Constitution, and pocket-size "rights of man". They are coming for your freedom.

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#224

Post by ivolimmen »

orangetuba wrote: post #183

I am not surprised. The EU consists of a bunch of bullies that force their views on member countries. Abide, or be sanctioned and bullied into compliance. Leaders of members countries are being bought to encourage membership. And when the people vote against it, there will be a new vote next year. And once you've joined, you can't leave out of fear of sanctions.

You have a really negative view on the EU. No you can leave the EU, like England did. We did not sanctioned them. It's not a smart move but it's what they wanted. Going forward we should join hands more not less. What is happening now with the war against Ukraine you really see the power of working together. Something we should do more .

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#225

Post by dathinab »

reedjosh wrote: post #200
dathinab wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nono, you are getting all your facts wrong. > Originally it wasn't even supposed to have a military presence. Because each country has its own military presence and they all already cooperate anyway together in the NATO so they already had a connected military presence as part of NATO. The reason they consider making that plan explicit is due to a massive lost of trust in the US and realization that the US will put i…

> due to a massive lost of trust in the US and realization that the US will put its interest before their interest. Sure. And that's reasonable. The US will do that. I just think it goes against the original promises, and national sovereignty is being widdled away by larger governing bodies like the EU. > But it's very far away from being totalitarian. Okay, the legislation being suggested to monitor communications i…

> Okay, the legislation being suggested to monitor communications isn't totalitarian?

Problematic, Misguided, and can be abused by totalitarian regimes. Oh and also likely in conflict with EU law, Human Rights and some member constitution.

Which are very good reasons to prevent it.

But it's not necessary totalitarian by itself.

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#226

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

reedjosh wrote: post #213
snowwrestler wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without government we had a choice, and we chose to create governments. Government was not dropped on our heads by the robber barons, it has been invented and re-invented throughout human history by regular people who need to solve problems. > Humans can organize themselves quite well when they have maximum choice as individuals. Yes, and then you’ll need a word to describe the collective actions of the organized hum…

Lysander Spooner wrote about this very thing in the 1800s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysander_Spooner Many people didn't have a choice. Governments at the start are like mafias and will fight you until you acquiesce. The history of the US is riddled with federal government takeovers and increased taxation of people who did not want it.

The history of the US is not even 300 years at this point.

Humans have been creating societies and forms of governance for at least 10,000 years. Get some perspective.

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#227

Post by rrsmtz »

ryandrake wrote: post #215
rrsmtz wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence the recent crackdown on “misinformation”. Skepticism and dissent can’t be prevented, but its spread can be suppressed. Many otherwise good people have fallen hook line and sinker for the “misinformation pandemic” propaganda campaign.

There's a huge difference between skepticism (expressing some contrary opinion) and misinformation (putting forward lies as facts), although I have to admit the spreaders of misinformation have gotten very good at innocently claiming they're "just asking questions."

Yes, they are different, but it’s extremely easy to conflate them if the skepticism is contrary to the interests of the powerful and you hold the power to censor.

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#228

Post by logifail »

harabat wrote: post #192
sixhobbits wrote: post #21

Have to jump through a few links to get to the 'protest' part. > Protest now by contacting the responsible EU Commissioners! Experience shows that a phone call is more effective than e-mails or letters. Officially, the planned obligation for messaging and chat control is called “legislation to effectively tackle child sexual abuse online”. > If an office tries to redirect you to the EU Commissioner for Home Affairs (…

For those who won't read the article: it provides a few ways to protest [0] (contact Commissioners, request media to cover this issue, get active on social media) and offers a list of arguments [1] (such policies don't work against CSAM but make it worse, while better/more targeted methods are being ignored). If anyone has experience calling to protest, could they share it here? Otherwise, the simplest course of acti…

> the simplest course of action might be to copy-paste the arguments given [..]

Not wishing to seem defeatist, but is there much (any?) evidence that sending copy-pasted arguments to elected representatives actually achieves anything?

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#229

Post by logifail »

sixhobbits wrote: post #21

Have to jump through a few links to get to the 'protest' part. > Protest now by contacting the responsible EU Commissioners! Experience shows that a phone call is more effective than e-mails or letters. Officially, the planned obligation for messaging and chat control is called “legislation to effectively tackle child sexual abuse online”. > If an office tries to redirect you to the EU Commissioner for Home Affairs (…

> Ms von der Leyen

I'm deeply sceptical of Ms von der Leyen. Not least because of how she got her job.

She manages to get the press to talk about the EU giving Ukraine "a speedy response" re: joining the EU[0][1][2]

Then Macron says it will take "take decades"[3] [4]

I'm sorry, but once you reach that threshold of political posturing, if von der Leyen promised that tomorrow is definitely Wednesday then I'd immediately start checking my calendar :(

[0] https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/news/statemen... [1] https://www.euronews.com/2022/04/08/von-der-leyen-gives-ukra... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/08/ursula-von-der...

[3] https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220509-live-russia-read... [4] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61383632

Re: Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11

#230

Post by srcreigh »

jarbus wrote: post #68
srcreigh wrote: post #45

Here's the uncommon opinion. Google/FB, by extension US government, already performs mass surveillance. There are actually 2 solutions to this problem. One is stopping Google/FB. The other is making mass surveillance more common, lessening the impact of mass surveillance. In that sense non-US govs taking mass surveillance is a boon to power balances and competition amongst nations and economies. Does this opinion hav…

How does making mass surveillance more common lessen it's impact? To me, that's like saying making COVID more common will lessen it's impact.

For one, it would create more investment opportunities for privacy focused services. It's a way to dismantle big techs giant advantage and increase competition.

When surveillance is less valuable and more common, privacy is more valuable and less common, so we might get it.

Again, this might be totally flawed, but I would be curious why it is necessarily flawed.

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