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Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

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Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#51

Post by taylodl »

tablespoon wrote: post #28
diogenescynic wrote: post #16

Can’t say I’m too concerned. Every project I’ve ever worked on that outsourced something ended in failure or a major decline in quality. We used to need 3 accountants in the US, now we have an army of BPO accountants and none of them know what they’re doing and things take longer than ever. Outsourcing doesn’t work. It’s not even clear it costs less when you factor in the decline in quality, delays, and extra work ne…

> Can’t say I’m too concerned. Every project I’ve ever worked on that outsourced something ended in failure or a major decline in quality. We used to need 3 accountants in the US, now we have an army of BPO accountants and none of them know what they’re doing and things take longer than ever. Honestly, I don't think corporate decision-makers really care about those metrics. > It’s not even clear it costs less when yo…

It’s not even clear it costs less when you factor in the decline in quality, delays, and extra work needed by everyone else to monitor the outsourced work. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

How do you read that as six one way, half a dozen the other? Outsourcing often leads to lower quality, delays (which has business opportunity costs) and extra expense to monitor and review the work. Instead of being faster, cheaper, better outsourcing is slower, more expensive, and worse. Why would anybody choose that?

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#52

Post by jollybean »

joshstrange wrote: post #22
zcw100 wrote: post #7

A better headline would have been, “Tech industry uses scare tactics to try and force people back into the office”. Been there, done that. If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced. Do you really think they were sitting around saying,”I know they cost more but I’m too busy playing golf to bother” and they’re only getting around to it now?

Agreed, wake me up when cheap outsourced developers actually works out. I've yet to see it. I have nothing against foreign developers but most of the outsourcing shops I've had the displeasure of working with are 0.2-0.5X developers at "only" 0.6+X of the cost. I know there are developers in other countries that can run circles around me but they aren't working for pennies. Also this mindset completely disregards thi…

"wake me up when cheap outsourced developers actually works out. "

You're missing the point here.

They're not going to be hiring from 'body shops' they're just going to be hiring people 'remote' - just like you.

Why do you think that you in 'Small Town Ohio' are going to get hired over the guy in France at 80 cents on the dollar, or Poland 60 cents on the dollar, when they have decent language skills.

You're going to find out quickly that 'core education' in a lot of countries is as high, if not higher than US.

Brazil has iffy educational standards but their upper 1/3 get a good education, and India the ratio is worse but population higher.

The number of good devs. from China is blowing up.

US is 5% of the world's population, and educational standards vary.

It's a big world and Google etc. have no 'loyalty' to America.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#53

Post by usrn »

vsskanth wrote: post #41
usrn wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between outsourcing and immigration? It's still taking jobs away from the native population.

Its a very common misconception that immigration takes away jobs from the native population. Also known as "Lump of Labor Fallacy".

Then why not outsource?

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#54

Post by alaricus »

keikobadthebad wrote: post #4

'Tech industry' has offices in India, China, Canada already to exploit the cheaper labor directly.

Replace "exploit" with "pay less because the cost of living there is much lower".

My colleague in India gets paid a fraction of what I make, but he is able to afford a bigger house and more luxuries. The cost of living in the Western word is out of control.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#56

Post by farmerstan »

michaelt wrote: post #17
zcw100 wrote: post #7

A better headline would have been, “Tech industry uses scare tactics to try and force people back into the office”. Been there, done that. If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced. Do you really think they were sitting around saying,”I know they cost more but I’m too busy playing golf to bother” and they’re only getting around to it now?

I think they were sitting around saying "The outsourcing of the 1990s failed because of poor communication; there's no replacement for regular face-to-face meetings"

In the 1990s there was zero talk of outsourcing. It was early to mid-2000s where it started.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#57

Post by causi »

usrn wrote: post #35
vsskanth wrote: post #8

H1B visas are a lottery with Many don't realize how bad its gotten lately on the immigration front. Last year, USCIS wasted 160K green cards, this year they are on track to waste 200K green cards, simply because they are too slow to process paperwork. Companies are probably tired of all this uncertainty and legal overhead so they now offer relocation to their offices outside US if you have visa problems and to have e…

What's the difference between outsourcing and immigration? It's still taking jobs away from the native population.

Because the money still goes into the American economy. They buy food, housing, insurance, consumer goods, services. Immigrants are a huge financial boon because we get an adult that Americans didn't have to pay for. Prenatal care, delivery, food, childhood education, all of that gets paid for by somebody else and then we get the product of their expenditure for free. That's like every single immigrant donating one or two hundred thousand dollars to the nation as a whole the moment they cross the border. Then as an added bonus they have children here, and help shore up declining birthrates.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#58

Post by jollybean »

commandlinefan wrote: post #31
zcw100 wrote: post #7

A better headline would have been, “Tech industry uses scare tactics to try and force people back into the office”. Been there, done that. If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced. Do you really think they were sitting around saying,”I know they cost more but I’m too busy playing golf to bother” and they’re only getting around to it now?

> If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced It already has been outsourced and then re-insourced as soon as the quality was evident.

'Hiring cheap body shop devs. from poor country X' - is not what's happening here.

This is not 'offshore body shop' movement.

It's the 'hire from anywhere movement' because 'remote working' ... and anyone doubting this is in for hard awakening.

The underlying assumption that US devs are somehow 'better' is absurdly wrong.

US businesses are often better, for a variety or reasons, pushing up the salaries of those who can ultimately work 'in the office' (by passport or whatever) - but that's changing due to 'remote work'.

It's a big, real, secular, probably transformation change.

It's probably for the better actually - the only problem I have with it is the the accumulation of capital by shareholders who have more power.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#59

Post by usrn »

causi wrote: post #57
usrn wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between outsourcing and immigration? It's still taking jobs away from the native population.

Because the money still goes into the American economy. They buy food, housing, insurance, consumer goods, services. Immigrants are a huge financial boon because we get an adult that Americans didn't have to pay for. Prenatal care, delivery, food, childhood education, all of that gets paid for by somebody else and then we get the product of their expenditure for free. That's like every single immigrant donating one o…

We don't want them buying housing, we have a housing shortage.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#60

Post by sfink »

usrn wrote: post #35
vsskanth wrote: post #8

H1B visas are a lottery with Many don't realize how bad its gotten lately on the immigration front. Last year, USCIS wasted 160K green cards, this year they are on track to waste 200K green cards, simply because they are too slow to process paperwork. Companies are probably tired of all this uncertainty and legal overhead so they now offer relocation to their offices outside US if you have visa problems and to have e…

What's the difference between outsourcing and immigration? It's still taking jobs away from the native population.

Kind of like the difference between renting and buying.

Financially, money paid to immigrants stays in the economy of the country they've immigrated to. (Minus money sent back to family in their country of origin, but that will necessarily be much less than 100%.)

Socially, immigrants become part of the community & society. Given that they tend to be skilled, motivated, and adaptable (they need to communicate with multiple cultures, for one!), this tends to be a good deal for the receiving country.

It's like trade, it always seems to end up enriching trading partners as compared to those that refuse to trade at all. And like trade, it requires some degree of control and regulation to not impoverish portions of the population while enriching others—both trade and immigration can be gamed. Nothing's going to have a positive impact on everyone across the board, but it's not like what people seem to be fearing when they focus only on the direct job impact on the so-called "native" population.

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