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Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

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Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#41

H.265 requires getting a license from at least 2 patent pools[0], and who knows how many other patents are out there waiting to get sued over. If you want a new cross platform video codec, check out AV1.[1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding#P... [1] https://aomedia.org/av1/

This explains why browsers do not include their own software decoder, but they should not need a license to use the decoders provided by the host platform.

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#42

Because the US endorses the concept of "essential patents," meaning you need to pay a licensing fee to be lawfully allowed to perform the math that transforms data into A/V content. Never to mention the two blatant issues with this, being: 1) video codecs are the exemplary "we'll patent math and there's nothing you can do about it" scam, since that's literally all a video codec is 2) a process being "essential" to a…

I mean, is a video codec really just "math"? There's a binary payload description and algorithms involved for applying said math as well.

I'm no expert in the field, so I'm actually asking in good faith here...

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#43

Because the US endorses the concept of "essential patents," meaning you need to pay a licensing fee to be lawfully allowed to perform the math that transforms data into A/V content. Never to mention the two blatant issues with this, being: 1) video codecs are the exemplary "we'll patent math and there's nothing you can do about it" scam, since that's literally all a video codec is 2) a process being "essential" to a…

I mean, is a video codec really just "math"? There's a binary payload description and algorithms involved for applying said math as well. I'm no expert in the field, so I'm actually asking in good faith here...

Everything you can instruct a computer to do is just math, yes. "Instructions on how to use the math" is, unsurprisingly, also more math.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#44

New Edge supports it, if you have the h265 extension from the microsoft store (cmd "start ms-windows-store://pdp/?ProductId=9n4wgh0z6vhq"). It's also the only (?) browser that supports AC-3 audio. Thanks for nothing, Dolby. There's barely any content though (possibly premium VODs on Netflix etc). Bilibili (kinda like Chinese youtube) offers HEVC (and AV1) playback, if your browser supports it. Example: https://www.bi…

My problem with AV1 is that hardware support for it is far from ubiquitous. I can load up a file I encoded with x265 on any of my devices from the last 6 years and be sure that it will play back smoothly without eating battery. The only device in my house with hardware AV1 support is the RTX 3080 in my desktop. So for the time being, I encode all my blu-ray rips with x265.

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, is a video codec really just "math"? There's a binary payload description and algorithms involved for applying said math as well. I'm no expert in the field, so I'm actually asking in good faith here...

Everything you can instruct a computer to do is just math, yes. "Instructions on how to use the math" is, unsurprisingly, also more math. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus

I am well aware of the foundations of CS and the lambda calculus, but this is more than a bit reductionist, like saying "everything is made of subatomic particles."

Patents on processes and methods are pretty common. Dismissing it as "they just patented some math" and then falling back to saying "oh, lambda calculus" -- I think you can do better :-)

But, yes, I'm sure the patents suck.

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#46
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome and Mozilla both want their competitor format AV1 to “win”. Plus, partial support is a burden - one of the patent holders might come by and ask you to prove you didn’t accidentally violate one of their patents while fastidiously only using that approved hardware. I think there’s a lot of lawyer risk there below the waterline.

It would also be extremely confusing to support something with only hardware decoding. People running supported hardware would start saying things like "Firefox supports HEVC" which would sound plainly wrong to someone with unsupported hardware.

On the other hand, basically all platforms of the last few years support hardware decoding of HEVC. nVidia does, Intel does, AMD does... so pretty much for every PC made in the last ~six or so years:

- You paid the royalties for HEVC, possibly multiple times

- It can almost certainly encode and decode HEVC without breaking a sweat

- You (practically) can't use it ("if it's not on the web, it's dead")

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#47
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome and Mozilla both want their competitor format AV1 to “win”. Plus, partial support is a burden - one of the patent holders might come by and ask you to prove you didn’t accidentally violate one of their patents while fastidiously only using that approved hardware. I think there’s a lot of lawyer risk there below the waterline.

It would also be extremely confusing to support something with only hardware decoding. People running supported hardware would start saying things like "Firefox supports HEVC" which would sound plainly wrong to someone with unsupported hardware.

Yes a decade ago this was the Firefox approach to h264 -- leverage OS/hardware support if available. Can confirm horrible experience for devs and viewers

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#48
post #13

This is also behind heic? Right? Man what a pain, I love hdr and Live Photos but anywhere outside the Apple ecosystem it is pain. I really wouldn’t mind paying some dollars for some codecs to just be able to see my pics in Windows, Linux, Nextcloud etc.

Windows 11 appears to read HEIC in the photos app.

With the required codec from the store, yes.

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you can instruct a computer to do is just math, yes. "Instructions on how to use the math" is, unsurprisingly, also more math. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus

I am well aware of the foundations of CS and the lambda calculus, but this is more than a bit reductionist, like saying "everything is made of subatomic particles." Patents on processes and methods are pretty common. Dismissing it as "they just patented some math" and then falling back to saying "oh, lambda calculus" -- I think you can do better :-) But, yes, I'm sure the patents suck.

Why should Free software advocates need to "do better" than to argue from literal first principles?

Fourier could call his transform a "process" all he wants, but that does not make it patentable.

So yes, "oh, math."

Re: Ask HN: Why does nobody support h.265/HEVC anymore?

#50

Because the US endorses the concept of "essential patents," meaning you need to pay a licensing fee to be lawfully allowed to perform the math that transforms data into A/V content. Never to mention the two blatant issues with this, being: 1) video codecs are the exemplary "we'll patent math and there's nothing you can do about it" scam, since that's literally all a video codec is 2) a process being "essential" to a…

> that's literally all a video codec is

Go on then, make a better video codec, as it's just math.

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